Did we watch a relationship?

[Pitseleh]

I'm bringing this here 'cause I wouldn't want to start this discussion on the videos thread.

We were talking about how boushh's awesome video was a winner at the con, and it was played before Jolene took the stage. Dis posted this:

And Jolene said she liked it! She said she liked the way it "made it seem like Trip and T'Pol had a relationship". Apparently, in her view, the series didn't make that clear enough.

And that stung me. 'Cause it's sort of true. Here's the thing: TnT never had an established relationship on the show. Every time they were supposed to move forward together, something happened: the morning after in Harbinger, Koss in Home, T'Pol telling Trip she needed time and space in Daedalus, and even after Bound where we 'shippers were supposed to cheer and party, we had Demons and Terra Prime thrown at us with *the_abomination* after it. We never saw them as a couple. Maybe it's just me and this is hitting me until now 'cause I'm dense or something. Wasn't the bond supposed to make things clear for all of us regarding them? Didn't that establish them as a couple? And no, I'm not counting the thing that aired after Terra Prime 'cause holodecks don't count.

Your thoughts on this? Did we see a "relationship" on screen?

[Elessar]

I think it was.

"What's she know about me... bout us?"

If I said that to a girl and she didn't consider us an item, SHAME on her if she doesn't correct me.

[CX]

That still doesn't mean much because it can be taken differently. I'd prefer to interpret it the same way you did, hence my "Reconciliation" fic, but when it comes down to it, Coto basically teased us the way we've always been teased.

As for if we saw a relationship, yes, we did, a very dysfunctional, ill-defined one. They had a few ups, but a lot of downs, they did it together, but they still weren't really ever a couple. As you said, anytime they got close, something happened to prevent it.

[Distracted]

I agree. A one night stand and lots of dysfunction doesn't make a relationship.

[Eian Flannagan]

There is so much ambiguity in almost every TnT scene and in the show as a whole. I, however, am a nerd...so I will break this down in a way that lets me sleep at night:

First---what is a "relationship?"
re·la·tion·ship [ri-ley-shuhn-ship]
–noun
1. a connection, association, or involvement.
2. connection between persons by blood or marriage.
3. an emotional or other connection between people:
4. a sexual involvement; affair.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
—Synonyms 1. dependence, alliance, kinship. 2. affinity, consanguinity. Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

We get 3 out of 4 on that one.

Second---from Startrek.com's Season 4 synopsis of Bound:
"T'Pol deduces that she is immune because of her Vulcan physiology. When Vulcans mate, she notes, a psychic bond is formed — feelings, thoughts and images can be shared. This, then, is why Trip is immune — and explains the strange, shared daydreams both he and T'Pol have been having."

Hmmm....mating = psychic bond. That leads me to my last point.

Third---What is a "bond?" What does it mean "to bond?"
bond [bond]
–noun
1. something that binds, fastens, confines, or holds together.
2. something that binds a person or persons to a certain circumstance or line of behavior: the bond of matrimony.
3. adhesion between two substances or objects, as concrete and reinforcing strands.
4. to connect or bind.
5. to establish a close emotional relationship to or with (another): the special period when a mother bonds to her infant.
6. to hold together or cohere, from or as from being bonded, as bricks in a wall or particles in a mass.

I don't know about ya'll, but I see a great deal of similarity between the definitions in my first point and the definitions in my third. Maybe Jolene misspoke? Without hope, humanity is lost.

That was my 2 cents. Got to go dig in the sofa now...

Eian

[Elessar]

That still doesn't mean much because it can be taken differently. I'd prefer to interpret it the same way you did, hence my "Reconciliation" fic, but when it comes down to it, Coto basically teased us the way we've always been teased.

As for if we saw a relationship, yes, we did, a very dysfunctional, ill-defined one. They had a few ups, but a lot of downs, they did it together, but they still weren't really ever a couple. As you said, anytime they got close, something happened to prevent it.

I wouldn't blame Coto. The way they write episodes is the way we wrote the Round Robin at HoT. You wouldn't blame me if I started the fic and D finished it and split TnT up, would you? That's the kind of thing I think he had to contend with between he, Rick, Brannon, Sussman and the others. While the non-BB's didn't exactly have a horrible TnT track record, I think it's defendable that they weren't of The Faithful.

Excellent post, Eian

[CX]

There are always going to be die-hards who won't see how we were basically cheated out of a something that was so much more promising, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

As for blaming Coto, yes, I still do. As much as I don't care for the vast majority of what B&B did, the last few episodes of S3 were building toward a reconciliation between TnT. It was hinted very strongly at, and then promptly disappeared in S4. Coto is also completely responsible for the holding pattern TnT were put into, and the drawn-out angst. While initially I thought the world of him, and though S4 was all kinds of awesome, S4 has not aged well for me.

[Escriba]

I'm bringing this here 'cause I wouldn't want to start this discussion on the videos thread.

We were talking about how boushh's awesome video was a winner at the con, and it was played before Jolene took the stage. Dis posted this:

And Jolene said she liked it! She said she liked the way it "made it seem like Trip and T'Pol had a relationship". Apparently, in her view, the series didn't make that clear enough.

And that stung me. 'Cause it's sort of true. Here's the thing: TnT never had an established relationship on the show.

Well, they had a relationship, other thing is if we believe it was a romantic, last standing relationship or just something more sporadic and less "serious".

The thing is we, as viewers, can see the relationship entirely and, as TnT fans, we can remember and recall their scenes more clearly than an actress can. I mean, she had worked in the entire show and had a lot of scenes. For actors the filming is a little more cut up. I remember when Strazinsky talked about an episodes of "Babylon 5" ("War without end") and how the poor Mira Furlan had to memorize all the speech about the Shadows when she didn't remember not even the half of the events. You know, for the actors is a job. The experience is a little different for them.

[Asso]

I'm bringing this here 'cause I wouldn't want to start this discussion on the videos thread.

We were talking about how boushh's awesome video was a winner at the con, and it was played before Jolene took the stage. Dis posted this:

And Jolene said she liked it! She said she liked the way it "made it seem like Trip and T'Pol had a relationship". Apparently, in her view, the series didn't make that clear enough.

And that stung me. 'Cause it's sort of true. Here's the thing: TnT never had an established relationship on the show. Every time they were supposed to move forward together, something happened: the morning after in Harbinger, Koss in Home, T'Pol telling Trip she needed time and space in Daedalus, and even after Bound where we 'shippers were supposed to cheer and party, we had Demons and Terra Prime thrown at us with *the_abomination* after it. We never saw them as a couple. Maybe it's just me and this is hitting me until now 'cause I'm dense or something. Wasn't the bond supposed to make things clear for all of us regarding them? Didn't that establish them as a couple? And no, I'm not counting the thing that aired after Terra Prime 'cause holodecks don't count.

Your thoughts on this? Did we see a "relationship" on screen?

What else want we? Want we they to tell us: "Hey, look at us! We are involved! We are a couple!"

[boushh]

Well I believe they had a relationship because they related to each other on some level all the time. I see Jolene's point though because it wasn't like they let them get together and be an official couple on the show. They were trying to get to that point and then the show was over and if you could *the_abomination* then there is a whole other thing to consider with the holographic stuff in that episode. I don't want to get into a *the_abomination* discussion, but it's worth noting that it does exist and that could be coloring opinions.

So while T/T had a relationship, were bonded, had tons of scenes together, ect... They were not in a relationship like say Paris and Torres or Worf and Dax... They never got there because the show got axed, IMHO. I think they would have gotten there eventually because to me there is no other way to go storywise unless it starts to make no sense or get too convoluted. That isn't to say it would have been a walk in the park either, but that's a different topic.

Anyway, I didn't view JB's comment negatively, plus the video does manipulate the T/T relationship to fit the song. It doesn't follow canon and seems to give them a sort of fun little ending. JB could have just as easily been comparing the canon events to the video events, which had a happy, 'shippy resolution.

[Pitseleh]

I think it also depends on what you call a "relationship". Whether they were established as a couple or not, I think it was very evident that they were involved, even if it never got to be a "formal" sort of involvement. Daedalus was important that way--even if I hate the way T'Pol told Trip she didn't have time right now, it was basically also a way of saying "we all know where this would be going if we didn't have hurdles all around." Boushh has a point: it should have gone that way if the show hadn't been cancelled. We don't know what would have happened afterwards--I don't exactly trust these writers--, but I think we would have seen something more concrete than a one-night-stand and a bunch of angst.

This sort of makes me giggle 'cause it reminds me of my mom talking about how casual relationships are nowadays. Something like: "So, he's you boyfriend?" Nah, we're just going out." "Like dating?" "Not exactly." "So, what's the point?" "Perhaps it will go somewhere." "You kids confuse me."

[Asso]

I think it also depends on what you call a "relationship". Whether they were established as a couple or not, I think it was very evident that they were involved, even if it never got to be a "formal" sort of involvement. Daedalus was important that way--even if I hate the way T'Pol told Trip she didn't have time right now, it was basically also a way of saying "we all know where this would be going if we didn't have hurdles all around." Boushh has a point: it should have gone that way if the show hadn't been cancelled. We don't know what would have happened afterwards--I don't exactly trust these writers--, but I think we would have seen something more concrete than a one-night-stand and a bunch of angst.

This sort of makes me giggle 'cause it reminds me of my mom talking about how casual relationships are nowadays. Something like: "So, he's you boyfriend?" Nah, we're just going out." "Like dating?" "Not exactly." "So, what's the point?" "Perhaps it will go somewhere." "You kids confuse me."

Right!
And...

[pdsldl]

They had a relationship whether they or the writers fully acknowledged it or not. They were cheated out of the time to explore and develop the relationship when the show got axed. It wouldn't make any sense to "bond" them and then not explore all the possibilities and complications that bond would have. I'm just glad fanfic writers have developed the storyline as TNT are my favorite Star Trek couple.

[CX]

Except that even with the bond they still weren't really a couple in Demons. In fact, they seemed kind of pissy at each other. And apparently they broke up again some short time after Terra Prime. That's the thing, and people have already noted this before - every time something could have brought TnT together, something else was contrived to keep them apart.

[Elessar]

Except that even with the bond they still weren't really a couple in Demons. In fact, they seemed kind of pissy at each other. And apparently they broke up again some short time after Terra Prime. That's the thing, and people have already noted this before - every time something could have brought TnT together, something else was contrived to keep them apart.

Well, yeah, that's why we ignore those things

Sanity is a delicate balance between reality and fantasy, and in this particular regard I don't think we have to instill too much fantasy to keep our sanity.