Is T-Pol a Couger

[Silverbullet]

I am not sure of how old Vulcans live but I always thought the average age was 200. given that at age 66, T-pol would be a young woman by vulcan standards. Probably equivalent to mid to late 20's in Earth terms. which means she would be emotionaly and physically mature. She would be at the start of her child bearing years and that may have some effect on her biologiclly. which could account for her Seduction of Trip. she has selected him a her lifes Mate (although she seems to have changed her mind by the next morning) and she sees Cole as a threat to that. Her only means of preventing cole from getting Trip is to bind him to herself. Becoming mates. I have never considerd that T-Pol looked upon that night as a one NIght xstand or a roll in the Hay. It was meant to be much mor serious than that to her. Probably to Trip also as he he seemed to be the kind of man who when he foud the woman in his life would remain faithful to her and T-Pol appeared to be that woman.

So, in a way she is a Couger: a Older woman, in age, claiming a younger male.

[Aquarius]

I'm confused about what being sexually mature has to do with emotional readiness for a relationship. Our youth are sexually able to reproduce at a much younger age than their emotional maturity level. To me that is not what the basis for maturity for relationships should be, if so then marriage at 12 would seem reasonable. And as far as cultures that condone marriage at a young age their youth are aware of their own culturally mores and hopefully are prepared by their families for the responsibilities involved.

I asked the question because I'm not convinced T'Pol is pubescent at her age. If she was, that just puts a whole "ew" factor on her having sex with a fully-sexually mature human guy. I pretty much agree with honeybee here.

[Silverbullet]

Acqarius, I am not sure I understand your last post. If T-Pol has reached Puberty then what is wrong with her having Sex with a Sexually mature Human Male. If she has not reached Puberty then there would be a EWW factor same as in Humans. A Sexually mature Human male having Sex with a female who had not reched Puberty. BAD

[honeybee]

I think Aquarius was agreeing with me, SB - that not having gone through pon farr doesn't preclude a Vulcan from being sexually mature. T'Pol is clearly a sexually mature woman, so there is no ick factor - even though she hasn't gone through her mating cycle.

[pdsldl]

I guess I always thought Vulcans sexual maturity and Pon Farr were different animals. To me Pon Farr was all about forcing the emotionally repressed Vulcans to reproduce. Whether or not they can at other times is an open question but they certainly were shown to be capable of sexual attraction and activity outside of Pon Farr. I think both Spock and Tuvok had episodes where they were attracted to non-Vulcan females and considered relationships with them. And T'Pol most certainly had sexual desires, as shown with her dreams of Tolaris, the shower scene with Trip and her seduction of Trip. Her dreams came when she didn't meditate and when her brain had been altered from Trellium D. I saw that as a sign that they were capable of having a sexual relationship but because they were Vulcans they just repressed those emotions/desires due to the volatile and overwhelming nature of them.

[Pegmumm]

Yeah but... aren't we judging Vulcans by human standards. We are the virtual bunnies of the universe able to reproduce before we really are capable of caring for our young adequately. We go to great lengths to prevent pregnancy until we are financially and emotionally ready. Our ability to control birth rates (beyond the flannel nightgown with a stout string through the bottom) has only come in the last 20 years.

As one of my professors put it... we reproduce in the numbers we do as a result of our impulsivity at an early age. That's why we still have so many impulse challenged individuals whose parents had children before they were weeded out of the population. Think Darwin awards.

Maybe Vulcans do stave off reproduction until well after they are emotionally and financially capable of adequate care for their offspring. I often wondered if the 7 year itch was a natural drive ... or something imposed by the culture through some sort of indoctrination at an early age. Wouldn't it suck if your sex drive got shunted off into a 7 year cycle through some sort of ceremony in childhood? But... it would be logical.

peg

[Aquarius]

I think Aquarius was agreeing with me, SB - that not having gone through pon farr doesn't preclude a Vulcan from being sexually mature. T'Pol is clearly a sexually mature woman, so there is no ick factor - even though she hasn't gone through her mating cycle.

Right. If she was just going through puberty in her 60s, that's like a teenager sleeping with someone in their 30s. Ew.

If we're to believe Vulcans can have sex outside of pon farr (which obviously they can and do), then pon farr doesn't necessarily mean she's reached sexual maturity; it just means she's being compelled to mate.

[Alelou]

Nah, she's no cougar... but her mom sure is.

Along those lines, if you've never seen "Polly's Mom," you must...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1iitTuH4bk

[pdsldl]

Yeah but... aren't we judging Vulcans by human standards. We are the virtual bunnies of the universe able to reproduce before we really are capable of caring for our young adequately. We go to great lengths to prevent pregnancy until we are financially and emotionally ready. Our ability to control birth rates (beyond the flannel nightgown with a stout string through the bottom) has only come in the last 20 years.

As one of my professors put it... we reproduce in the numbers we do as a result of our impulsivity at an early age. That's why we still have so many impulse challenged individuals whose parents had children before they were weeded out of the population. Think Darwin awards.

Maybe Vulcans do stave off reproduction until well after they are emotionally and financially capable of adequate care for their offspring. I often wondered if the 7 year itch was a natural drive ... or something imposed by the culture through some sort of indoctrination at an early age. Wouldn't it suck if your sex drive got shunted off into a 7 year cycle through some sort of ceremony in childhood? But... it would be logical.

peg

True if Vulcans reproduced like humans for 3/4 of their lifespan Vulcan, being a desert planet, would most likely not be able to sustain them. Besides biology suggest that your body is not able to sustain all aspects of itself at peak efficiency during periods of growth. It's possible that Vulcans mental abilities required the majority of their bodies resources until they were mature enough to maintain their emotional control before they were able to take on the responsibilities of parenting. Human teens brains slow down during puberty allowing for the enormous amount of growth and hormone activity during that time.

[crystalswolf]

Human teens brains slow down during puberty allowing for the enormous amount of growth and hormone activity during that time.

Yeah, tell me about it. The perpetual fog! Although, sometimes it's entertaining

[Silverbullet]

Pon Farr. I am in the camp of no female Pon Farr. I still believe tht it is in response to the males Pon Farr that female is driven to have sex with her male. Since both apparently ar age seven when engaged they would both be the same age at his first Pon Farr. I am assuming he would have to be excaully mature as Pon Farr is about procration. Having babies. She would need to be sexually mature also.

When Pubery happens in a vulcan? Don't know as there is nothing in the Encyclopedia about it.

Again when she says she is 66 I am equating that with a Human age of mid to late 20. She should be exually mature by then but perhaps not Pon Farr mature. She could have sexual relations but not capable of being compelled to have Sex by her males Pon Farr. Perhaps vulcans don't consideer marriage until they are in their 70's. and Marriage may be needed to trigger Pon Farr in a male or the pending marriage.

[Pegmumm]

I found out something interesting about cats... each kitten is in a separate placenta and the first mating... in which no kitten results... triggers ovulation for the next mating and so on. Maybe Pon Farr in the male is like that... it would explain the contracted mating period. Each successive mating triggers ovulation.

just sayin'
peg

[honeybee]

Right. If she was just going through puberty in her 60s, that's like a teenager sleeping with someone in their 30s. Ew.

If we're to believe Vulcans can have sex outside of pon farr (which obviously they can and do), then pon farr doesn't necessarily mean she's reached sexual maturity; it just means she's being compelled to mate.

Yeah. T'Pol certainly appears sexually mature - in Fusion, Bounty and later in the lead up to Harbinger. It's also established canon that Vulcans don't need pon farr to have sex, GR said as much. They just have to have it during pon farr.

T'Pol is very likely sexually inexperienced, given that she was betrothed as a child and she comes from a culture that suppresses emotions (and by extension desires). In Fusion, she is drawn to Tolaris but doesn't start having sex dreams until she stops meditating. In Bounty, her faux-pon farr is brought on by bacteria. And in Harbinger, her drug addiction has encouraged her to act on impulse. But her desires are not artificial, just her inability to suppress them. But her even her sexual inexperience would manifest differently than it would in a pre-teen - because she's emotionally mature and likely studied and read about sexuality before engaging in the act.

And yes, the notion that she's an adolescent or worse pre-pubescent and has all these human men ogling her - it's pretty distasteful. And I'm more than happy to allow my human mores to inspire such a reaction.

[Asso]

Right. If she was just going through puberty in her 60s, that's like a teenager sleeping with someone in their 30s. Ew.

If we're to believe Vulcans can have sex outside of pon farr (which obviously they can and do), then pon farr doesn't necessarily mean she's reached sexual maturity; it just means she's being compelled to mate.

Yeah. T'Pol certainly appears sexually mature - in Fusion, Bounty and later in the lead up to Harbinger. It's also established canon that Vulcans don't need pon farr to have sex, GR said as much. They just have to have it during pon farr.

T'Pol is very likely sexually inexperienced, given that she was betrothed as a child and she comes from a culture that suppresses emotions (and by extension desires). In Fusion, she is drawn to Tolaris but doesn't start having sex dreams until she stops meditating. In Bounty, her faux-pon farr is brought on by bacteria. And in Harbinger, her drug addiction has encouraged her to act on impulse. But her desires are not artificial, just her inability to suppress them. But her even her sexual inexperience would manifest differently than it would in a pre-teen - because she's emotionally mature and likely studied and read about sexuality before engaging in the act.

And yes, the notion that she's an adolescent or worse pre-pubescent and has all these human men ogling her - it's pretty distasteful. And I'm more than happy to allow my human mores to inspire such a reaction.

[Escriba]

As one of my professors put it... we reproduce in the numbers we do as a result of our impulsivity at an early age. That's why we still have so many impulse challenged individuals whose parents had children before they were weeded out of the population. Think Darwin awards.

Sorry, but LOL!