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I find it interesting how the levels of believability can vary from person to person, and even from show to show by the same person. Although I LOVED Babylon5 because of its diversity in aliens and alien culture, I could also enjoy Star Trek with countless human-like aliens. Some people considered this too unbelievable (scientifically improbable) and so flocked to B5 when they could not stomach Star Trek.

If you want to believe Humans & Vulcans cannot conceive naturally, so be it. If you think they can, so be it. If you think the pregnancy requires assistance, so be it. If you don't, so be it. Sometimes we need to remember we are talking about a fictional character from a fictional race breeding with a fictional human from a fictional futuristic civilization And for some, that's stretching reality a little too far.

Do I think it's possible that a human and alien could reproduce without help? Not even a little (see Distracted's post on chimp/humans). Is that going to stop me from writing (or reading) stories that it can be, heck no! ... obviously

Ezinma88 wrote::evilmonkey: Well, fornicating with chimps aside.... (he, he!)

I've been wracking my brains to remember if there were any human/alien surprise pregnancies.... For some reason Tom Paris and B'elanna Torres vaguely spring to mind. But, she was half-human... so that might not count

I think you may be right Distracted. Not sure why, but it makes me kinda sad.

That is the best use of the Evil Monkey I've ever seen. Just had to say.

Distracted wrote:The problem with that assertion is that there are thousands of SF fans who are also "science geeks", so writing for a SF audience requires more stringent standards. I personnally prefer my SF to conform to current known science and then take off from there. Of course it's limiting, but that's the challenge. It takes more imagination and intelligence to believably extrapolate from known science. Just pulling things out of thin air doesn't require nearly as much effort.

Yeah, I'm one of those. I like my story ideas to have some basis in fact. Most of the time, I prefer that they reference real places and real science.

Wasn't Be'lanna half klingon?
And the mother of Worf's son, Alexander human/Klingon?
There's Spock of course.
All the Cardassian/Bajoran crosses.

Science fiction is what it is. As an old science fiction collector... whether or not it contains real science has never mattered.

You're only limited by your imagination.
After all... there is no possibility of warp drive, deflector shielding or other species at this point in time... so the whole conversation is moot. There may not be anyone out there to contact.

And THAT makes me real sad.
peg

Pegmumm wrote:Wasn't Be'lanna half klingon?
And the mother of Worf's son, Alexander human/Klingon?
There's Spock of course.
All the Cardassian/Bajoran crosse

And Elizabeth, daughter of Trip and T'pol. The question isn't whether it happens, but whether it requires medical intervention. I don't believe there is any indication that any of the above were 'natural' (unaided) conceptions.

Pegmumm wrote:Science fiction is what it is. As an old science fiction collector... whether or not it contains real science has never mattered.

I disagree. It DOES matter. As a general rule, the better the science, the better the science fiction. And, sure, I can accept some techno-babble and hand-waving around technology that does not exist and may never exist. (Warp drives, matter transporters, subspace radios, etc...) But to have things that are flatly impossible without the slightest attempt at an explanation is an insult to my intelligence. The episode 'Sim' comes to mind. By what physical mechanism did Sim end up with all of Trip's memories? It was never explained. For me, that one fact ruined the whole episode. Instead of being able to enjoy the story line, I could only shake my head in disbelief and marvel at the ignorance of the script writers.

Which brings me to my next point. I have always felt there is a double standard regarding math and the hard sciences. I know many highly educated, highly intelligent people who freely proclaim their ignorance of math and science. There is no stigma involved in such an admission. In fact some people say it as if they are actually proud of the fact. Now compare that to the shame someone would feel at admitting they were functionally illiterate and you'll see what I mean about a double standard. My personal belief (backed by no facts or evidence beyond the actual text of the episodes) is that 'Enterprise' writers fell into the category of the science-challenged (and not ashamed to admit it).

But nobody cares that the people writing SCIENCE fiction scripts for TV are ignorant of basic physics. I'd be willing to bet that the script of every medical drama is vetted by at least one doctor. I'll bet the script of every legal show is reviewed by at least one lawyer. But how many scientists or engineers do you suppose reviewed Enterprise's scripts? I'd be willing to bet Zero. Zip. Nada.

So, yeah, technical accuracy matters to me. I will even accept plot devices that are blatantly impossible--as long as I feel the writer recognizes it is a problem and has made an attempt (no matter how feeble) to address that fact in the story. Just give me SOMETHING. In the Sim episode, they could have done something like this:
ARCHER: "Phlox, Sim is remembering things only Trip could know. What the hell is going on here?"
PHLOX: "Because their brains are exactly the same, Sims memory synapses are resonating with Trip's. His brain is remotely accessing Trip's memories as if they were his own."

There. One line of pseudo-science, and I'm happy. An attempt was made to explain it, now I can get on with the story.

Now was that so hard?

Substantially I agree with you, Transwarp. But remember: you yourself said "pseudo-science", and that will remain, always, I think.
On the other hand, it's true that "the script of every medical drama is vetted by at least one doctor", but - believe me - the results are all but good, in my personal opinion.

Edited: I should not have posted.

[Practical Annie speaking:]

Biologically speaking, it's almost impossible for a Vulcan and Human to produce offspring without a LOT of intervention. The iron/copper blood is only one complication.

That said...

[Writer Annie speaking:]

1) Accidents happen. (natch ). And just because it does happen, doesn't mean it'll be smooth sailing.

2)There are options, even if #1 happens. Artificial wombs is one. Not only will the fetus be in a controlled environment where their unique needs can be met, but it would help with TnT's professional situation. I can't see Starfleet allowing a pregnant T'Pol on a ship that could see military action. This way, if the artificial womb wasn't on Enterprise, she could still be able to serve. (Granted, being a mum myself, that would just tear me apart, not being able to be near my child. But I'm just saying that's one option. It was done in the Honor Harrington series.)

3)Frozen embryo, a la the Augments? If Trip or T'Pol are KIA, at least a part of them is left behind, and the surviving spouse can choose to have the child (w/medical intervention, like in #1)

4) Science IS important to a Star Trek story. But there's also the "fiction" part of "science fiction". That's why it's so fascinating.

Transwarp wrote:But how many scientists or engineers do you suppose reviewed Enterprise's scripts? I'd be willing to bet Zero. Zip. Nada.

I can't speak for Enterprise, but TNG was always picking the brains of scientists at Jet Propulsion Laboratory and NASA and so forth. I met one of those guys once on the set.

That little line in Similitude would have made me happier too, but if you look closely at it, it's really just as ridiculous as the one they did use, with Phlox suggesting that Human memory must have more of a genetic foundation than was generally believed.

They couldn't have written that story and been scientifically plausible. However, I still think it was the series' single best episode. I'm more than willing to accept the ridiculous conceit to get the story.

One of the better Science Fiction writers, Issac Asimov, often said that he made sure his science ws correct. If he didn't know it he got the proper inofrmation from those who did. He did say that here were some things that were not possible so he used them happily becaue they could not be proved or disproved. He did not have Warp Drive but uHyper space Drive. He used it extensively. He said a good Science fiction writers kept as close to real Science as possible and the rest was just imagination.

RE sim. What bothered me about that Episode was the fact that there wre two identities in Sim. First ws that of Trip which was evident from when the clone was a child. the second appeared later when the clone was about the age of 20, evidenced by the chocie of Key Lime Pie. so, you have the Trip Icdentity and now the Sim identity both in the clones body. Where in Hell did the second identity come from. I can go along with the clone having trip memorieis. personality, mannerisms. But I cannot buy a second personality. But here had ot be one because when the clone confessed its affection for T-Pol it said that it didn't know if the feelings were Trip's or it's. That means two identities. Where did the second one come from. Or was it a Split personality of Trip?

Alelou wrote:That little line in Similitude would have made me happier too, but if you look closely at it, it's really just as ridiculous as the one they did use, with Phlox suggesting that Human memory must have more of a genetic foundation than was generally believed.

Actually, I don't remember that line in the episode. I feel better that they made SOME attempt at an explanation. And yes, my line is also ridiculous, as it must be to explain an impossibility (which Sim having Trip's memory is). So with me, the issue isn't whether the science is bogus or the explanation is implausible. The issue is the way the characters in an episode ignore something happening around them that is glaringly unlikely, casually accepting it as if it never occurred to them it was odd. The pseudo-science gives them a reason to accept the unlikely event, and I, the viewer, am not left wondering why I am the only one who thinks it's strange.

As for inter-species conception, I went to the Memory Alpha link Crystalswolf provided, and it says:

"Because of the common genetic ancestry of most of the races of the Milky Way Galaxy by way of the ancient humanoids, many species are able to interbreed with or without the help of genetic technology. In fact, Humans and Vulcans are quite similar."

This is contradicted by other pages on the same web site (most notably regarding Vulcan physiology).

So, once again, we reach the cross-roads of conflicting canon in the Trek universe. Fortunately, it is a well-traveled road and the solution is obvious: Use the brand of canon most friendly to your story or idea.

Lady Rainbow wrote:But there's also the "fiction" part of "science fiction". That's why it's so fascinating.

Indeed!

In Italian language, we say "Fantascienza": "FANTA- Science".
Fanta has the same root of Fantasia: FANTASY.

Asso wrote:In Italian language, we say "Fantascienza": "FANTA- Science".
Fanta has the same root of Fantasia: FANTASY.

Ma certo, amico mio!

La fantasia e' sogni dolcissimi, no?

I had no problem with Sim developing differently then Trip 'nature vs nurture' would account for that. A clone may be the dup of another person but would be raised in a different environment so develop different/additional personalities traits and memories even if the originals were intact. As for Trip's memories the writers just glossed over that I'm sure thinking the overall story was enough to override any objections about plausibility.

I'm not ignorant about science, I have the basics down enough to know that copper and iron don't mix well, that dominant/recessive genes and things like hearts lo places would make a Vulcan/Human child an impossibility without extensive intervention from doctors and scientist. Not sure if Paxton said how many attempts they made before Elizabeth but even cloning took time as he did mention it took them a some time to figure out about the bond and at least implied they lost some because of that. I'm sure they lost others before they found the right combination of genetic manipulations to make. And since she didn't survive there's no real way to know if she would have had further problems later on. And Starfleet may be only quasi-military but in Enterprises time they were not prepared for inter-species births on board a starship, in space, involving their 2nd and 3rd in command. Too many medical and political mine fields to work around and too much risk with a Romulan war imminent.

Lady Rainbow wrote:

Asso wrote:In Italian language, we say "Fantascienza": "FANTA- Science".
Fanta has the same root of Fantasia: FANTASY.

Ma certo, amico mio!

La fantasia e' sogni dolcissimi, no?

That's for sure!