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honeybee wrote:And, as for people and what they say in interviews, they often say different things depending on audience/mood. Its a frustration of journalists.

Plus, I think it often depends on *who* is being interviewed. Different people are going to have different perspectives on the same events. It's inevitable.

And what disappoints one person can bring another joy. What one person calls a waste may not be such a big deal to someone else. Personally, I came to love on the show.

It's the whole we-each-have-our-own-personal-cannon thing again. I mean, most of us seem to disgregard most of seasons 1&2, parts of season 3, and the abomination, but I'm sure somewhere (and I don't feel like searching, but I'm sure it's out there) there's an equally rambaging group of fans with a forum discussing how much they love the Archer/T'Pol dynamic and hate TnT.

But getting somewhere back on topic, could you see the whole crew remembering "Twilight" though? Sure, woulda been interesting if they could manage it, but it'd be bound to create a lot of psycosis too. And it would probably have taken some of the "tension" out of it because, presumably, somewhere in those twelve years they would have learned somethign about where the Xindi were building their weapons, stationed their fleets, et cetera, et cetera that would have remained applicable in the normal universe and made episodes like "Stratagem" and "Proving Ground" unnessicary. They'd probably also have learned something about the Xindi themselves, so "The Hatchery" probably would've occurred differently too, which is a shame, 'cause I really like that episode too...

What I'm getting at, though, is you end up loosing the whole race-against-time, try-to-find-the-people-who-want-to-kill-us, once-ship-against-the-Expanse angle they were going for in season three if the crew remembers "Twilight", which is no fun, regardless of the ship it may or may not expouse...

Personally, I came to love on the show.

Me too. I see its flaws, and I love it anyway. I would never declare I hate anything about it, except for maybe *the_abomination* but that's a special case. Even if I hate a specific episode or aspect, I recognize that some of my fellow fans may see an episode or moment differently. Who am I to sneer at them and make myself superior? What's the point of that? That's why I was so gratified to see io9 writing so thoughtfully and, imo, correctly about how good the show was. It's the bastard stepchild of trek - it it's underrated and takes too much abuse from idiots. Defending it and seeing it defended is a pleasure.

Getting back to Twilight - and Alelou's original question. I again wonder how remembering might have affected Archer, who was already hanging by an emotional thread in season three. I said earlier that I thought it might make Archer crack up more and become timid, but on the other hand, it might make him more focused - give him - I've seen the worst case - now moving forward attitude. That would have been harder for the writers to carry off, but it's possible.

What's interesting is that E2, which you think would have informed the whole crew's actions a lot more, was rarely, if ever mentioned again. I expected Lorian to be name checked at least in Home and Demons/Terra Prime. Or referenced in some way. I get they wouldn't want to confuse people who hadn't see that episode, but they could have done it in a way that didn't do that.

In this section:

T'POL: The civilian ships were disassembled for their components and raw materials. We used them to construct the settlement. At this point, you often wonder if you’re a victim of some elaborate deception.
ARCHER: The thought did cross my mind.
T'POL: Margaret Mullin. You met her when you were twenty four years old, during flight school in San Francisco. The night before you graduated, you asked her to marry you, outside of her apartment on Westgate Avenue. She turned you down. She said she didn’t want to become a Starfleet widow.
ARCHER: How the hell did you know that?
T'POL: Our relationship has evolved over the years.
ARCHER: Exactly how far has it evolved?

The script had said T'Pol answering "Not that far" but on the spot, as they were filming, they decided that leaving the question unaswered would be better. (Pretty sure this info is from the DVD commentary)

I loved this episode and I even got to discuss it with Robbie McNeal, who I swear STARTED the conversation. (When he was on stage I asked him which was his favorite episode out of those he directed, and he described this one, but couldn't remember it's name. Several people shouted out the answer. Later in the autograph signing room, no one was coming to his table, and he said to me, "Oh, sorry, I forgot the name of your episode." YES, he remembered me and HE SAID "your" epsiode. I said, "Not at all" and proceeded to gush about what a wonderful job he did with that episode. And he agreed that he was proud of it.

Yes, I should be more responsive to the question: Having the crew remember the events would be like aging them. It would be bad for the show. However, there is a very similar Next Generation episode (The Inner Light?), where Picard experiences a whole lifetime in 15 minutes (because of a probe), a lifetime in which he is married and has children. That was one of the very best NextGen episodes and it was very good for Picard's character, showing us how under different circumstances he could have been a good husband and father. If you will recall, Picard claimed not to be able to relate well to children. Well, when thrown into the situation we see him do it, like most new parents. Parenthood transforms a person.

But as for Twilight, it's a good thing they didn't remember. The experience would have been aged the crew. From a dramatic perspective, it was good enouph that all of season 3 aged the crew and gradually changed them.

I hate Twilight, but I can understand the reason for wanting to show what would happen if they failed in their mission.

With that aspect in mind, I once mentioned how I would have accomplished that had I been running things (and with no damn AinT). I would have started the season - or rather ended the second one - with a fully grown Xindi sphere blowing up Earth. Enter Daniels, who says to Archer that this wasn't supposed to happen. Future guy had secretly helped the Xindi to build this and now Daniels has to enlist the aid of the NX-01. He sends them into back in time one year into the Expanse to defeat the Xindi before their "death star" can be launched. Then season three happens and the timeline is restored. And since they're away in the Expanse they won't accidentally encounter themselves from the year past. That way they would remember at least the devastating effects of Earth's destruction, and upped the ante for the entire Xindi arc.

Voilà!

First aside: Excellent, excellent fics that were recommended above. Really well done.

Secondly, I think I tend not to pick apart and question episodes so thoroughly because this show is pure entertainment for me. I stopped watching because I didn't find it compelling enough to continue (and I will admit it was due in a large part to the crappy reception I got from UPN too -- I've only recently graduated to the wonders of satellite television and dvr-ing). But I didn't hate it. I just felt ambivalent. When I picked it up again, I LOVED it. And when I went back, I saw that the show was entertaining... not the same kind of "wow" that I feel watching most of season 3 and all of season 4... but worthwhile and entertaining.

But in the end, I am just not what I'd call an "expert" or a rabid fan. So, Twilight... I have to agree with justTripn that it would have unnecessarily aged the crew. The entire third season did that adequately. It did have the best teaser, though.

Kevin Thomas Riley wrote:I hate Twilight, but I can understand the reason for wanting to show what would happen if they failed in their mission.

With that aspect in mind, I once mentioned how I would have accomplished that had I been running things (and with no damn AinT). I would have started the season - or rather ended the second one - with a fully grown Xindi sphere blowing up Earth. Enter Daniels, who says to Archer that this wasn't supposed to happen. Future guy had secretly helped the Xindi to build this and now Daniels has to enlist the aid of the NX-01. He sends them into back in time one year into the Expanse to defeat the Xindi before their "death star" can be launched. Then season three happens and the timeline is restored. And since they're away in the Expanse they won't accidentally encounter themselves from the year past. That way they would remember at least the devastating effects of Earth's destruction, and upped the ante for the entire Xindi arc.

Voilà!

This would have made a lot more sense, but I suspect they may have feared it would be too dark for the audience and a little too reminiscent of the kind of isolation the crew suffered in Voyager. Also, Daniels and the TCW were already annoying the hell out of fans at that point. I also think they were aiming to create a sort of 9/11 parallel, at least emotionally, and destroying the whole planet right off the bat would have messed that up. But yes, it would have been far more logical than what we got.

Yes. Earth got blowed up good in that teaser, Misplaced. LOL It's quite a way to begin an episode.

JT, that's so cool that you got to discuss the episode with the director. I remember another thing about it, that SB suggested it be a two parter - but RDM, correctly liked the idea of it being compressed and lots left to the imagination. I suppose that's why it can be a rich timeline for fic writers as well.

aadarshinah wrote:And it would probably have taken some of the "tension" out of it because, presumably, somewhere in those twelve years they would have learned somethign about where the Xindi were building their weapons, stationed their fleets, et cetera, et cetera that would have remained applicable in the normal universe and made episodes like "Stratagem" and "Proving Ground" unnessicary. They'd probably also have learned something about the Xindi themselves, so "The Hatchery" probably would've occurred differently too, which is a shame, 'cause I really like that episode too...

What I'm getting at, though, is you end up loosing the whole race-against-time, try-to-find-the-people-who-want-to-kill-us, once-ship-against-the-Expanse angle they were going for in season three if the crew remembers "Twilight", which is no fun, regardless of the ship it may or may not expouse...

Very good, basic point. In fact, I was just playing with the idea in a little fic, but you've blown me right out of the water. It would have effectively destroyed nearly the whole rest of that season in terms of the main storyline.

Alelou wrote:This would have made a lot more sense, but I suspect they may have feared it would be too dark for the audience and a little too reminiscent of the kind of isolation the crew suffered in Voyager. Also, Daniels and the TCW were already annoying the hell out of fans at that point. I also think they were aiming to create a sort of 9/11 parallel, at least emotionally, and destroying the whole planet right off the bat would have messed that up. But yes, it would have been far more logical than what we got.

Which is essentially what they did with the Enterprise of the "E2"-verse... and ST writers have never been above taking plots from other ST series and tweaking them for their own needs. Because, after all, "E2" is the VOY-concept of ENT, "Extinction" is the "Threshold" and god knows how many TNG episodes of ENT, "Elogium" is the VOY "Amok Time", and so on.

But it woulda been cool. Would probably make a great fic....

aadarshinah wrote:But getting somewhere back on topic, could you see the whole crew remembering "Twilight" though? Sure, woulda been interesting if they could manage it, but it'd be bound to create a lot of psycosis too. And it would probably have taken some of the "tension" out of it because, presumably, somewhere in those twelve years they would have learned somethign about where the Xindi were building their weapons, stationed their fleets, et cetera, et cetera that would have remained applicable in the normal universe and made episodes like "Stratagem" and "Proving Ground" unnessicary.

Okay that settles it... Anything that would make Proving Ground unecessary is a bad thing for me. Shran and Talas are always necessary. I loved Proving Ground! See I'm reasonable, I do point out positive aspects of ENT. Which is more than I can say for myself and DS9.

You know I can't understand why a lot of people here hate VOY. But I like talking to them about it. I don't think they're making themselves superior. They have legitimate complaints about the show. I find I learn a lot more when people do hate something. I certainly don't think I defend VOY from "idiots."

I can agree that the crew "aged" a lot in season 3, but I think TnT were the only ones who never quite went back to "being young" again.

justTripn wrote:I loved this episode and I even got to discuss it with Robbie McNeal, who I swear STARTED the conversation. (When he was on stage I asked him which was his favorite episode out of those he directed, and he described this one, but couldn't remember it's name. Several people shouted out the answer. Later in the autograph signing room, no one was coming to his table, and he said to me, "Oh, sorry, I forgot the name of your episode." YES, he remembered me and HE SAID "your" epsiode. I said, "Not at all" and proceeded to gush about what a wonderful job he did with that episode. And he agreed that he was proud of it.

jT make a former 9 yr old little girl who fell in love with Nick Lacarno and Tom Paris (at 11) very happy... Was he as drop dead georgeous in person!!!

Have not viewed Twilight. but in "Dusk" I believe the humans were all in one place which made it esier for the Xindi to wipe them out. It would seem to me that the humans would disperse go todifferent worlds hide and rebuild thier populations. Try to get in contact with other specias like the Xryillins to obtain thier Stealth technology so they could hide thier ships and attack the Xindi that way, but to put all of thier eggs in one basket sounds illlogical.

lol saw this thread and thought for a minute that TnT were supposed to be watching bad 21st century vampire movies.