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Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:20 pm
by Cogito
Kotik wrote:Cogito wrote:Kotik wrote:If you're caught comitting a crime in a foreign nation, you have a RIGHT to call up your embassy for involvement of your own countries authorities.
You only have that right if the law of the country you're in gives you that right. It's not true to say that
anybody in
any foreign country has that right.
Sure, but we're talking about it in the context of 22nd century starfleet. I have slight doubts that their laws will be styled after North Korea.
Really, we've got two discussions going on in parallel: contemporary law, and trek law. I was responding to your comments about contemporary law. In the real world current time, a foreigner committing a crime only has the rights granted to them by the jurisdiction they're in. There is no general right to have legal representation, be allowed contact with your embassy (or anyone else), have a fair trial (or any trial). If the local law said you're liable to summary judgement and execution then that's what you're going to get.
The same would hold for trek law. The rights of aliens in earth's jurisdiction would be defined entirely and exclusively by our laws. I suppose that a hundred years after first contact we would probably have figured out how to deal with non-humans but conceivably, in the interim, you could have a situation where an obviously sentient alien would have no legal rights at all. If you imagine that one of the Roswell conspiracies was true and there was a genuine alien held prisoner on Earth this very second, I doubt that the people holding them prisoner would be breaking any laws.
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:27 pm
by Kotik
Cogito wrote: If you imagine that one of the Roswell conspiracies was true and there was a genuine alien held prisoner on Earth this very second, I doubt that the people holding them prisoner would be breaking any laws.
Well, he would be an 'illegal alien' wouldn't he?
And those have rights in the US Of Americaland.
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:48 pm
by Cogito
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:39 pm
by Silverbullet
Hold up. MY eyes are not doing so well right now so I have not read previous posts. However:
By internartional law a foreign national nheld in a countires jail ha sthe right to see a consular officer from his country. That officer can give him a list of local lawyers, ask for the names of anyone the person wants to be notified. The consular Officer can bring items like food, blankets, whatever. The consular may visit the person once a week. This cannot be denied by international law.
U> S. cosular Officers keep contacts with local law enforcement so the Embassy or consulate is notified if someone is being held (Not reqruied but is a courtesy)
What is required is if a diplomat (One who is on the Diplomatic List) is being held. That Diplomat can only be held for 24 hours, may NOT be questioned and not tried. worst that can haappen will be the Diplomat wil be kicked out of the country. Tis is called Diplomatic immunity. (Helps the spooks)
A U.s. citizen has only the right to a consular officers visit if the officer knows he is being held.
When I was in the Dip service usually the consular officer kept a very close relationship with the local head of the police. That way the consular officer often coould get some kid out of jail by promising to have the kid on the next plane out of the country. Cost some small bribes like the occasional bottle or two of Scotch, some American cigarettes, get to meet american dignitaries when they visit. Gratis Visa to visit the U .S.
In the case of the U.s. the consular officer may not pay for anything or obligated the U.S. goverment. The peson's family or the person will sign a promisary note to repay the U.S. goverment for any montary outlay on the persons behalf. (You would be surprised how many as soon as they got back to the U.S. forgot that little loan and had to be run down to collect.
SB
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:57 pm
by Cogito
Silverbullet wrote:By internartional law ...
It's not that simple, though. You only have those 'rights' in countries that have signed up to the corresponding treaty/convention and adopted it into their legal system. In other words, the rights you have in a foreign country are defined
entirely by that country.
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:21 am
by Silverbullet
If you wnat to exist in the world community there are some things you go along with. It is damned helpful for a counttry to be able to send a consular officer to see a prisoner.
some countries ignore conventions and get away with it. Israel refuses to extradite anyone that is a Jew. Regardless if that person is a citizen of Israel or not. Switzerland also does not extradite. Brazil is another country that doesn't.
But some of these things are writen in the U.N. charter which has to be signed if a country wants to become a member.
I know that the U.s.aheres to the consular convention. I don't believe I have head of any country that does not.
I have lost track of my friends in the FS else I could check on this with one of the consular Officers I know. Perhaps State Department could be asked.
SB
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:29 am
by Transwarp
Silverbullet wrote:Perhaps State Department could be asked.
Perhaps. Except in this case, it doesn't matter. Canon is mostly silent on the matter, so you can have it however you want. The state of interstellar affairs in the future need not look anything like the state of international affairs today.
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:01 am
by Cogito
Silverbullet wrote:If you wnat to exist in the world community there are some things you go along with. It is damned helpful for a counttry to be able to send a consular officer to see a prisoner.
some countries ignore conventions and get away with it. Israel refuses to extradite anyone that is a Jew. Regardless if that person is a citizen of Israel or not. Switzerland also does not extradite. Brazil is another country that doesn't.
But some of these things are writen in the U.N. charter which has to be signed if a country wants to become a member.
I know that the U.s.aheres to the consular convention. I don't believe I have head of any country that does not.
I have lost track of my friends in the FS else I could check on this with one of the consular Officers I know. Perhaps State Department could be asked.
SB
While all that's true, my point is that in every case all of these things only apply if the country in question chooses to apply them. Your rights as a foreigner in a foreign country are defined entirely by the laws of the country you're in.
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:08 am
by Kotik
We're starting to split hairs here, folks
We talk about the same and make it look like two different opinions.
Cogito's sentence is right. You are completely at the mercy of the respective country's laws and those countries that have bilateral or multilateral agreements, just happen to have designed their laws accordingly. So you're still at their law's mercy, but the laws impose the conditions and rights, agreed to in those treaties.
Manitou has spoken
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:07 pm
by Silverbullet
Since Earth and Vulcan had exchanged Ambassador's (Soval for vulcan) and Embassies Earth Embassy was destroyed in one episode) there must have been agreements between the two planets. concerning treatement of the respective citizens of each planet on the others world. Trade agreements. Perhaps some agreement on value excahange since appparently currency was no loonger in use (how that is done is beyond me as there had to be some value exchange even if it's nothing more than bater and trade) Does vulcan have currency?
Whatever, there has been diplomatic agreemets exchanged between the two planets. Wonder if one of them is an agreement that a marriage between a Vulcan and a human is recognized on each world.
SB
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:42 pm
by pdsldl
And most of the rules/laws on Earth would not apply as Enterprise was not on Earth but considered a part of Earth in space. Then we have a group of Vulcans, who have been abandoned and ostracized on their own planet and have sought refuge in space. What is their legal standing on Vulcan??? Did they give up their citizenship when they left??? Regardless it's seems unlikely that Vulcan would offer them much assistance as they have rejected Surak and most other strongly held tenets of Vulcan society. If Tolaris were tried how would any consequences be laid out? There's no space jail so would he be sentenced to Enterprises' brig or would his shipmates be responsible for his incarceration? Would Vulcan insist he be sent to a monastery so priest could do what they did to T'Pol? It seems that charging him with a crime (mind-rape may be too out there for Earth but assault with intent to cause harm wouldn't be), would be difficult on so many levels it was just easier to let it go and send them on their way.
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:49 pm
by Cogito
pdsldl wrote:It seems that charging him with a crime ... would be difficult on so many levels it was just easier to let it go and send them on their way.
Burke wrote:All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:55 pm
by WarpGirl
I love that quote!
I just had another thought. Being that the VHC thinks humans are savage children who can't even tie their own shoes. Wouldn't they get involved just because they can. That seems to be their MO for the first 2 seasons anyway.
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:56 pm
by Kotik
pdsldl wrote:There's no space jail so would he be sentenced to Enterprises' brig or would his shipmates be responsible for his incarceration?
There's always airlock 7...
Re: Justice in early Starfleet
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:41 pm
by pdsldl
Kotik wrote:pdsldl wrote:There's no space jail so would he be sentenced to Enterprises' brig or would his shipmates be responsible for his incarceration?
There's always airlock 7...
I can see the airlock solution as seeming viable but I can't see T'Pol going along with that even though he assaulted her. She seemed fine with the let him go scenario but if punishment were given I would think she would be more for sending him to the priests, as incidents from all the Trek series seem to show that Vulcans treated most deviant behavior by training/retraining or manipulating the mind in some way. As far as him presenting the unleashing of a great evil, hopefully Archer did tell the captain of the Vosh Katur why they were being asked to leave suddenly. I know they were already leaving but Archer did give the impression that their departure was hastened because of Tolaris' actions. A Vulcan with deviant behavior and anger control issues poses a threat to his crew; as well as; others so I would hope the incidents weren't kept secret from Tolaris' crew. To me not informing/warning them would be criminal. For a group that was experimenting with control issues etc... you'd think they'd want to know that one of them was possibly ill or experiencing issues.
