Do Vulcans have a Religion?

[Aikiweezie]

I think a lot of people's default setting is based on Pascal's Wager, that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

Back to the Vulcan question,though, I found it interesting and funny how Vulcan's in Enterprise are very, very self riteous. Time travel is impossible. The Kir Shara does not exist. Surak's Katra is long gone. All these beliefs were wrong of course, but they clung to them anyway. They are very resistant to change.

[pdsldl]

SB I always thought T'Les meant T'Pol's presence interfered because she was her child and they were connected. T'Pol was in turmoil bringing Trip home (even though she may have seen it as a positive thing for them she didn't know how mom would react) and then the whole Koss/mother's future mess. Meditation isn't about prayer per se it's more about being in touch with your inner self. I see Vulcans meditating to quiet their inner turmoil, put down their emotions not examining them. If they acknowledge them it would give them much too much power over them making suppression more difficult. And Vulcans didn't show any predilection for delving into the unknown too deeply. In fact they tended to make cursory inquiries and if there appeared to be nothing they found valuable they cataloged the finding and went on. They found humans inquisitive natures troublesome. Just because we were taught to ask questions doesn't mean Vulcans did. Some people are born live as best they can and die never asking why they were even here. Vulcans didn't seem to be tolerant of those who stepped outside the path of logic and rational thought as they banished them from Vulcan and doesn't science/logic tend to make one not question things you can't experience through your senses and explain within whatever scientific construct you've built your world around?

[Alelou]

I think a lot of people's default setting is based on Pascal's Wager, that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose.

That sounds like Vulcan logic!

Except that I know I don't really live life as though God exists and scripture is true, because I have more than one coat, and like most Americans I qualify as rich by either Biblical or global standards. Jesus said a camel could pass through the eye of a needle more easily than a rich man could make it into heaven. This would appear to rule out heaven for me and almost every other Episcopalian I've ever met.

Sometimes, frankly, I think religion really is more about the pot-luck suppers and cultural identity than anything else.

[crystalswolf]

...And the episode that WarpGirl cites (where Tuvok's family asked priestesses to say prayers for his safety) doesn't fit with that either. First, if it is a form of meditation then asking someone else to perform it sort of defeats the purpose. Second, a prayer for safety is a prayer of petition or supplication. Which implies a separate entity is being petitioned. I don't see the logic of submitting a petition without believing there is someone on the other end to receive it.

I guess I always just thought that for Vulcan prayer was a form of extremely deep meditation that only priests & priestesses could achieve because they've dedicated their lives to it. The average Vulcan couldn't. And this is where I see the Universal consciousness come into play, which is extremely close to what Honeybee and Pdsldl described.

It is the idea that "God" is not one entity but that we are all a piece of the energy and as a whole, form what is called "God" and connected, we perform those events called "miracles" Because they do believe in souls (katras) and connections beyond touch (telepathy) this belief wouldn't be far-fetched to them. And deep meditation to tap into this consciousness I think would be considered prayer.

I actually know some Christians that believe this in a way. The idea that the more people you have pray, the more likely the desired outcome will be achieved.

While 'god' does imply worship, I don't see it as a requirement. To me, 'god' implies supernatural powers while 'advanced being' is a being with more power than you (but not necessarily supernatural). If the advanced being is advanced enough, he may appear supernatural, but the difference is still there.
I think if Vulcans were to worship a god, it would not look the same as human worship. Especially not after Surak's time. What it would look like I can't say. Probably more private and less communal than humans (although they'd be missing out on some pretty good pot-luck dinners!)

This is one of the few things I liked about the last couple of seasons of SG1. This topic came up quite a few times and made me think about it long and hard. "Supernatural," what does that mean really? Way back when, people thought illness was the supernatural, evil spirits and all. Those same people would consider our technology supernatural. If we were to meet someone that could change the form of any solid object, we would consider that supernatural... until we figured out how it worked. I'm drawing a blank on what would be considered supernatural and not just extremely advanced, do you have an example?

SB, I have to ask, where would Vulcans find the answers elsewhere? Suppose they did turn to religion, what then? If they created their own religion would they make up stories to answer their questions? I can't see them doing that. Would they take from others' religions or even their own ancient beliefs? I can see them picking it apart until there's nothing left to believe in. The "spark of life" question, I can see some Vulcan respond... "Ah, you mean the highly complex chemical reaction to stimuli?"

Transwarp, SB, it feels like these questions come off as rude but believe me they are not meant that way. I've asked myself these questions (and not just for Vulcans) and have only come up with the answers I've given. I'm always curious about other perspectives.

[WarpGirl]

I've figured it out like this... Believing in the possibility of a higher power doesn't necessarily mean formal worship of that higher power, (whatever form it may take) just because a Vulcan might be open to a possibility of a higher power, doesn't mean he or she "serves or worships" said higher power. So are we talking about worship or belief? They are two very different things. As far as I can tell the Vulcan "clergy" devotes itself to inner peace and harmony. Once a Vulcan achieves this inner peace, whether they decide to attain kolinahr or not, (its not a requirement) they are spiritually whole.

[Silverbullet]

Crystalwolf. the spark of life is not a chemical reaction to stimuli. Explain to me what causes life. I cannot. I know that a Baby is born living but I am damned if I know how. All things have that spark. When itis extenguised that is caused by an outside stimuli. Cancer, Bullets, Heart attack. but the beginning? No.

I am alive and I know it. but I cannnot say how or why. I just am. I stay alive because my Heart beats, I breathe, so far I have no serious illness. But that spark of life can be extstinguised easily.

Scientis are trying to create life now. So far they have not succeded. I doubt if they ever will. I am not sure if a Scientist can ever define a living thing. They can describe a human, bird, Dog but cannot explain why any of those live.

SB

[crystalswolf]

SB, by "spark" do you mean soul or life? I'm a bit confused by what you mean now.

[WarpGirl]

The way I understood it to mean was that SB is asking what causes life? What is the "spark" that causes something to be alive? At least that's what I think he's asking.

[Asso]

Asso and Aquarius are both right. Yes, we can't escape the fact that Vulcans are conceptualized by Humans. Real aliens probably really would be really mindblowingly different -- unless they evolved in a similar environmental situation, in which case, they might be quite similar.

However, within that conceptual framework, we can still make them quite different from most humans WE know. (Of course that usually just ends up just being a lot like our idea of other, nonwestern humans.)

Thank Alelou, but at this point, and having read what the others wrote about this matter, I think it's advisable that i try to explain once and for all, my thought. However it would be rude, that I talk of this subject here: it is unfit to the topic started by Silverbullet.
So, for those who are willing to follow my weird ideas, I am going to open another thread.

[Aquarius]

I guess it's one of those things we each see differently but I just can't see Vulcans worshiping some being(s) just because it's more advanced than they are (SG1 Ori). The term "god" assumes worship while the term "advanced being" acknowledges the existence of such a being but without worship (Prophets vs. Wormhole Aliens)

I'm pretty sure that GR even admitted somewhere that he based Vulcan religion on Zen Buddhism (while Klingon religion is an amalgam of Viking and Samurai culture) - but I think both the belief systems evolved as the show did.

So, I'm thinking that if Vulcans believe it God - it's more in line with the abstract God of Buddhism rather than the sentient, paternalistic God of the big three western monotheistic religions. God is a concept you know or get in touch with through practice - rather than please or worship.

So, I'm basically agreeing with you CW. If Vulcans do have a God, they don't get down on their knees and prostrate themselves. God is more of an idea that becomes part of oneself as Enlightenment is achieved.

This would be pretty consistent with GR in real life; if I recall, he was into some form of Buddhism at the time.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, you are right. Life is in us but we do not know how we are alive just that we are.

If it were a chemical reaction to a stimuli then Scientists probably would sooner or later find the right combination of Chemicals and stimuli. I very much doubt that. They can create something that will move if it is given an electric shock but that object cannot move on its own. It is not alive. Apparentlhy, a baby reaches a point where it can survive outside of the womb. But in the early stages it cannot it is entirely dependent on its mother for nutrients, oxygen, blood supply and life. It does not have an independent life. I am not going to get into a debate on this subject about when is a baby alive or has life. That is a hot potatoe.

But lfe in unique. Scientists cannot explain how it came about just that it is.

If you have ever seen the Sistene chapel and its celing. In it God touches Adam and gives him life. That is one intepretation of it.

I do not profess to know what is life or how it is achieved. I just know that it exists and that I am alive. Being a thinkin g being I wonder and ask about it but have yet to find a satisfactory answer.

SB

[crystalswolf]

Warpgirl, you are right. Life is in us but we do not know how we are alive just that we are.

If it were a chemical reaction to a stimuli then Scientists probably would sooner or later find the right combination of Chemicals and stimuli. I very much doubt that. They can create something that will move if it is given an electric shock but that object cannot move on its own. It is not alive. Apparentlhy, a baby reaches a point where it can survive outside of the womb. But in the early stages it cannot it is entirely dependent on its mother for nutrients, oxygen, blood supply and life. It does not have an independent life. I am not going to get into a debate on this subject about when is a baby alive or has life. That is a hot potatoe.

But lfe in unique. Scientists cannot explain how it came about just that it is.

If you have ever seen the Sistene chapel and its celing. In it God touches Adam and gives him life. That is one intepretation of it.

I do not profess to know what is life or how it is achieved. I just know that it exists and that I am alive. Being a thinkin g being I wonder and ask about it but have yet to find a satisfactory answer.

SB

Now I understand what you're saying. I think your last sentence, though, says it all. Each one of use have our own interpretation of what is a satisfactory answer just as cultures and (I would guess) aliens would. You do not accept complex chemical reactions because you "feel" there is more to it than that. Someone (or a culture) may not feel there is any more to it than that.

Someone said it earlier (I think Alelou) that this may be the reason why it seems we've seen totally different episodes and I agree. It's not a bad thing, it just is.

[Transwarp]

Transwarp, SB, it feels like these questions come off as rude but believe me they are not meant that way.

Fear not! There is nothing rude or offensive in any of your posts.

[WarpGirl]

I think it's important to remember, that although Vulcans believe in Logic, that doesn't necessarily mean as a society they revere science. Some Vulcans could care less about the scientific principles to define the universe around them. We don't meet many in ST, because most of them on the show are scientists, politicians/diplomats, or “military.” I very much doubt T'Pau, T'Lar, or the random priest or acolyte we glimpse at cares about how science defines life.

Vulcans believe and except the “unexplainable” at least after the second “Awakening” they do. So I'm sure some of them have pondered what science cannot tell them. As I said before there is a huge difference between “believing” and worshiping. So my guess is a Vulcan who believed in a higher power would not worship it.

[crystalswolf]

I actually have to disagree. I think they rely on their scientists for knowledge just as they rely on their priests and priestesses for guidance using that knowledge. We see T'Pau was passionate about the Kir'Shara but we do not know what led her believe so passionately in it. For all we know, she could have witnessed proof of its existence. It was hinted that V'Las hid the knowledge that ruins were in fact the T'Karath Sanctuary, to maintain power. Others may not have believed in it because they did not have access to proof as T'Pau and T'Les may have had.

I'm sure they would ponder the unexplainable, but I would think they would just file it under "we haven't explained it... yet" and not just chalk it up to "something magical out there is doing this"

Let's take time travel as an example. They refused to believe it was possible. My guess is because they could not achieve it and there was no proof it existed. Perhaps after T'Pol (Xindi) proved to them that it is was possible is when they would begin research seriously. They just do not seem like they would accept a story without proof.