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I'm not saying they "shrug off" what the scientists say, on the contrary... I just believe that people like T'Lar and T'Pau would have the mindset of... "Scientific proof just the beginning." Which it is. Spock, was a brilliant and dedicated scientist who relied on empirical proof. But even he said that there are mysteries in the universe and in life, that Logic, and Scientific Method do not address. I've never seen Tuvok or Spock state with certainty that there is not "something magical out there doing this."

In fact Spock quoted Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's, Sherlock Holmes...When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable is the truth.

Which brings me all the way back to my original point in my first post... A Vulcan might conclude that because there is no empirical proof a high power, or "God" exists that it would be illogical to believe in one. Another Vulcan might conclude that because there is no empirical proof a higher power or "God" does not exist then it would be illogical not to believe that one might.

About time travel... Doesn't that prove that just because something cannot be proven now, does not mean it doesn't exist or is impossible. I would hope they try to learn their lesson.

WarpGirl wrote:I'm not saying they "shrug off" what the scientists say, on the contrary... I just believe that people like T'Lar and T'Pau would have the mindset of... "Scientific proof just the beginning." Which it is. Spock, was a brilliant and dedicated scientist who relied on empirical proof. But even he said that there are mysteries in the universe and in life, that Logic, and Scientific Method do not address. I've never seen Tuvok or Spock state with certainty that there is not "something magical out there doing this."

In fact Spock quoted Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's, Sherlock Holmes...When you eliminate the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable is the truth.

Which brings me all the way back to my original point in my first post... A Vulcan might conclude that because there is no empirical proof a high power, or "God" exists that it would be illogical to believe in one. Another Vulcan might conclude that because there is no empirical proof a higher power or "God" does not exist then it would be illogical not to believe that one might.

Just as Sherlock Homes did not attribute the cause of events as "the will of God," Spock would not either. The improbable still has to be plausible and I would think Vulcans would only consider something plausible with proof. Again this boils down to how we choose to see them.

WarpGirl wrote:About time travel... Doesn't that prove that just because something cannot be proven now, does not mean it doesn't exist or is impossible. I would hope they try to learn their lesson.

Um... I don't think I was talking about what is or what I believe is. I was talking about what I think Vulcans believe which is fairly different. As for learning a lesson, I think this implies that they are doing something wrong which I heartily disagree with. If an alien race (or a human race for that matter) chooses to believe nothing but what can be proven and strive to prove theories, more power to them. It is no more wrong or right than a culture that chooses to believe ideas on faith alone.

Vulcans are empiricist. They insisted time travel was not possible and T'Pol agreed until she was presented with several personal experiences that could not be explained any other way but that time travel had occurred. I can not see her or Spock believing in some invisible, unknowable omniscient being controlling their destiny when their belief system and entire world was built around the idea that they must maintain such tight control of their minds to survive. Not likely to give up that control to something you cannot prove exist and risk your species very survival. That goes way beyond improbable.

PD, why should the Vulcans give up their way of life just because they believe in a higher power. They are not surrendering their entire being to that higher poweer. On Earth even the most devout continue to live by societies rules and conduct their eveyday life as others do. Vulcans can still maintain their rigid control of emotions follow suracks teachings which probably only harmonize with the higher power.

I once saw a brillian TV priogram in which some people were gathered and were told that they were going to be given the secret of life. What they got was the ten comandments. they found out that the commandments just echoed what they should have been living by as a society. that if followed most of thier problems would be taken care of except for Illnesses and the like. But safey, getting along with others that sort of thig would be answred.

The Vullcans coud find that the higer power also would lead them to a better understanding and confirm tier belief in control.

SB

That's exactly what I'm saying SB. I didn't say a Vulcan would automatically worship "God" or a higher power. I'm not even sure they'd view "God" as a being with a personality and a 'will.' I doubt it very much actually.

Um... I don't think I was talking about what is or what I believe is. I was talking about what I think Vulcans believe which is fairly different. As for learning a lesson, I think this implies that they are doing something wrong which I heartily disagree with. If an alien race (or a human race for that matter) chooses to believe nothing but what can be proven and strive to prove theories, more power to them. It is no more wrong or right than a culture that chooses to believe ideas on faith alone.

CW I apologize, I didn't make my point the way I wanted too. What I was trying to say was that eventually Vulcans had to admit that just because they could not prove something was possible, or existed, does not mean that it did not exist or was impossible. That's what I meant by "learning a lesson." Not that they did something wrong. But they were wrong.

T'Pol believed in microsingularities, something which hadn't been proven at all. Archer called them a "Vulcan Myth" I don't think Vulcans need absolute proof for everything.

Hmm... interesting topic.
In so far as religion is defined as a code of ethics by which one lives by... yes Vulcans have a religion. Do they believe in God? Somehow I doubt it. We, as humans, seek the infinite as a reflection of that which we cannot touch within ourselves. Somehow we know we have souls and that, we pray, there is an afterlife be it heaven or hell. For it is in that struggle that we gain a code of ethics towards our fellow man, we gain purpose within an unfeeling universe and we can exercise our perception of the infinite. We seek that "cherry high", the epiphany, whether it be vertically or horizontally acquired.

As to Vulcan psychology... it has been written that the soul, or katra, can be caught in a vessel; that they have priests and monasteries and that they have soul mates. However these aren't necessarily reflections of a belief in a godhead. The original reason for Surak's teachings was as a method of reigning in the total hedonism of fierce Vulcan emotions. A code of ethics by which they could suppress these drives and subsume them into the pursuit of logic. It was a method utilized to separate emotion and physical drives from action.

The human mind is holographic. We reconstruct everything we experience into a matrix of messages we attempt to retrieve during experience. Many times we superimpose our past experience on current, taking another step away from actual experience and substituting that which we already had stored. We cease to see a "brick wall" replacing it with something we put away into storage years ago. I, admittedly, am the ultimate phenomenologist. I believe that Vulcans attempt, through meditation and logic, to be in as constant contact with reality as they possibly can. The self become superseded by the dispassionate observer that rises out of the ground of experience. It is this observer that is the face they present to the world and each other. The self is subsumed by repression and categorization into a nether world of controlled drives and feeling.

Basically... they have a "religion" and its prophet is Surak. However, unlike humans, they can share their internal world with one another, something we can't. Their subconscious is known, it does not drive them. There is nothing hidden beyond just simple denial... if that's possible. But I also believe that Vulcans aren't as good at repression as they try to lead others to believe. They are as neurotic as the rest of us. Hence their need to channel humanities' thrust into space. It was pure and simple projection on their part. We... humans... are reminiscent of their ancestors.

What would happen if a Vulcan.. say the V'sh K'tur... found human religion? Now that would be an interesting story.

peg

Well that was interesting... I certainly will have to turn that over in my brain Pegmumm. One thing I am certain of, is that if a Vulcan ever decided to believe in "God" it most likely wouldn't be the same kind of "God" espoused by Christianity, Judaism, or Islam... Although I think there are many aspects of each they might find either fascinating, or admirable.

Which makes sense because the closest thing to religion GR came too was Buddhism. He was married to Majel Barrett in a Buddhist ceremony, and even that didn't stick, (the religion, not the marriage).

Interestingly in regards Surak as a "Prophet" The Savage Curtain, deals with that a little. According to it, Surak never wanted such reverence. So that right there is telling.

Since she's on the other side of the world right now, and I know she'd love this topic I'm just going to post a link to a story the marvelous Dis wrote, ironically its Trip who is having a hissy fit with God, and T'Pol helps him through it... It's not a preachy story, nor does it claim Trip was in any way devout, but it was very interesting. And T'Pol was very Vulcan...http://triptpolers.houseoftucker.com/fi ... auty.shtml

Personally, I think if a Vulcan can "appreciate beauty," (T'Pol) save a fellow crewman from a murder charge despite tons of empirical proof, (Tuvok) hold an 18 year grudge with family, more than once (Sarek and Spock) and most of all... Put what is "right" before what is logical (all of them) then its clear that empirical proof, and logic are not the last word in everything a Vulcan believes and does.

"Do not have any other gods before me."

I don't buy that Vulcans would have one God, since you can't prove one over the other, and personally I don't see how this helps a previously violent society, since it naturally tends to set up inter-religious warfare.

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." --

Well, I don't think Vulcans are particularly given to making idols, but we see things that could be taken as idols on Vulcan. (Check those statues that squish people in the new movie.)

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments

This is a highly emotional argument, not to mention that it operates out of fear and bribery, so I wouldn't expect Vulcans to be be terribly persuaded by it.

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

Another argument that doesn't exactly inspire one as terribly logical.

Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.

We see no indication of this from Vulcans. The rationale for it, that God made everything in six days, is unlikely to impress the average Vulcan either.

Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

I could see them getting into this one; there are plenty of self-interested secular and societal reasons for it, too.

You shall not murder.

Yeah, they could get into this -- except during kali'fee when apparently it's just fine.

You shall not commit adultery.

Non-issue.

You shall not steal.

Okay, lots of good logical secular, societal reasons for this.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Ditto, though we do see some 'exaggerations'

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Okay, fine ... unless your neighbor is a cute MACO named Amanda, and then apparently you can go to town.

OK I disagree that "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultry" is a non-issue. There was an entire series that dealt with that. Its called VOY... Tuvok, was stranded 70,000 lightyears from home, he said repeatedly at first that the "logical" thing for his wife to do was to get on with her life as if he was officially dead. He had opportunities to have several women, two of whom he was very, very, very, drawn too. And although his Pon Farr cycle wasn't a problem during those times, he said that he had a lack of companionship and it was difficult.

(Apparently for "more mature" Vulcan men their sex drive is more active outside of Pon Farr rather than a young buck like Vorik. Something for older human males to be jealous of.)

In any case he never considered betraying his wife. Why? It was perfectly logical, by his own admission that for all intents and purposes they were "dead to each other." When his Pon Farr did come he resisted using a holo-representation of his own wife. Apparently, there are bigger reasons than logic, or a mating bond to ensure fidelity in a Vulcan marriage.

As for "Thou Shalt Not Covet" Technically, Amanda was the one doing the coveting from a Vulcan standpoint. Neuropressure and all that time together was beginning to bond TnT, so he was T'Pol's not Amanda's. Making it impossible for T'Pol to covet something that wasn't hers.

EDIT: Actually what I find fascinating is that even thousands of years after Surak, as a whole, Vulcan society still adheared to his edicts so closely. (Romulan interferrence notwithstanding.) Pure straight logic, has absolutely nothing to do with morality. Logic doesn't care about good or bad, right or wrong. Surak's teachings did.

There was some awesome lines in a VOY episode Prime Factors http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prime_Factors_(episode) I think that if you look it up, it becomes clear that logic is only the starting point for a Vulcan.

WG that may be true but if so much was riding on your ability to maintain your control would you be willing to let loose of it even a little bit, especially to an unknowable, unprovable god like figure? Vulcans may not have been as together as they like to project but Surak offered them a real, tangible provable path to follow to ensure their continuation not some untested faith based destiny. Belief in a god just isn't logical to me and I cannot believe most Vulcans would give any consideration to an all-knowing, all-powerful god. Vulcans always seemed pretty self-contained, independent and less needful than we humans for much beyond their mates (which they may have rejected if the need had not been a biological imperative) when the time came so the need to rely on a higher power outside themselves does not fit where they are concerned.

Alelou you're premise is that if they had a god their precepts would be the same as humans. Having heard many Vulcans slam our beliefs, our emotionality, and lack of logic etc...I can't see how having similar beliefs would ever be possible. And I still contend that the statues etc... were holdovers and reminders of their past. Not logical but it's very difficult to let go of the ritual, even when it is no longer relevant, as it sometimes is that awareness of a shared past that binds a civilization together. Vulcans revered Surak as a wise man who gave his people a better path but they didn't pray to him or any other statues or idols. I think it was all a jumble for Vulcans. They had katras stored in containers yet when Archer held Surak's katra T'Pol did not seem to believe it possible for some time until Archer's behavior/knowledge again convinced her what she had been taught was not true. They same with bonds. It was all shrouded by stories and myths. If you're V'Las and you want your people to blindly follow you you either wrap them up tightly in religious belief where you are the the head or you banish all religion and work to make yourself the one whom your people listen to. The latter seems to be the approach he took so I would think any and all religions/gods or anything else that would have detracted from his power would have been discouraged with prejudice.

Actually I was just having some fun playing off the Ten Commandments, since SB thought they would make life better for any group. Some of them, maybe. The others ... not so much. Personally I don't think many Christians follow them to any notable degree, so I guess it's fortunate we also believe in love and forgiveness.

OK first of all, if you read my posts very carefully, you'll notice that I have said repeatedly that a human's concept of a higher power, and the Vulcan one would probably be very, very, different. Nowhere did I say they would rely on a higher power, or let the belief in one dictate the course of their lives.

Belief in a god just isn't logical to me and I cannot believe most Vulcans would give any consideration to an all-knowing, all-powerful god.

No offense but I think your personal views might be clouding your judgement.

WarpGirl wrote:OK first of all, if you read my posts very carefully, you'll notice that I have said repeatedly that a human's concept of a higher power, and the Vulcan one would probably be very, very, different. Nowhere did I say they would rely on a higher power, or let the belief in one dictate the course of their lives.

I think this is where we're having communication problems. The original question in the original post was "So, is there anywhere in Canon that inidcates Vulcans believe in an after life? If so they must have a religion because an Afterlife is part and parcel of a Belief sysem."

Do they believe it's possible for there to be a collection of energy floating around out there? Maybe, maybe not. Do they build a religion about this possibility, I don't think they would. Do they think this energy has a consciousness, I don't think they would. Would they actively try to prove the existence of such a being, I don't think they would care either way.

WarpGirl wrote:No offense but I think your personal views might be clouding your judgement.

Of course! As do you, as do I, and I'm sure everyone else here. We see the world through our experiences, feelings and thoughts. Personally, though, I believe there is a consciousness out there, but I can also see how others (especially logic loving Vulcans) may not because there is no proof for them.

Alelou, what I was referring to was a TV show. The ten commandments are from an Ancient Religion and when formed God was very real to them. Which would account for some of the commandments.

"You shall have no other Gods before me" seems to imply that there are other Gods.

Anyway, the one thing that I have found consitent amng beliefs is the "Golden Rule: Do unto others and you would have others do unto you." That in one form or another. It is universal on Earth. A good start to a decent society.

Like many I am transposing my belliefs in to this discussion. I am a literalist. I think and believe that a rational Logical species like the Vulcan would have to consider a higer power. They probably would not create a belief in the same way as we do but I think a belief would be formed.


I believe that one cannot be a thinking being without tackling the basic questions of Lfe. How did we come? Why are we here,? What is living? what is the spark of life? How do we think. Is there an Afterlife.? Does the Soul exist and is it immortal?

Not all vulcans, probably a small percentage of them/ But most would want the questions answred by their thinkers.

Is there a God? I simply don't know. That doesn't mean that I cannot ask the great questions.

SB

Vulcans did not believe in time travel because it couldn't or hadn't been proved. My guess would be that many still didn't even after the several incidences of it with Archer and T'Pol. The existence of a god would be more problematic to prove to prove or disprove. Much is a mystery yes but there is nothing supernatural about their beliefs as katras, bonds, telepathy etc... are all real and provable amongst their people. Praying through priests, who have training and are working to purge all emotions making it more likely they are in touch and more powerfully able to use whatever telepathic connection they possess to possibly exert influence though that connection or relying on priests to learn and teach others to deal with emotions and approach life through logic does not speak to there being a god or gods. Logic and god just don' t go together. But if religion is being defined as a set of beliefs that a society abides by then yes I think the Vulcans When Spock went back to be Vulcan to be reborn, in the movie, there was mention of the 3 gods (war, death and one other) in Vulcans history but I think it was also stated that they no longer worshiped any of them after turning toward Surak's teachings and the subsequent 'Awakening'. Were there believers probably they lived a long time and since they held such strong ties amongst family it's likely it took generations for any remnants of that past to die out but I just can't see it as being in the mainstream of Vulcan beliefs.

My own personal beliefs influence my comments here but I am quite capable of separating my beliefs, which do not exclude a force/energy at work in the universe but I'm not going to discuss my own beliefs as they have no bearing on what evidence we have as to what a Vulcan may or may not believe.

As far as an afterlife they placed their katras in containers and in order to communicate with them it must inhabit someone else's real live mind. Not much of an afterlife as far as I can see and if they believed in more than that why house their essence in a container?