Romance vs. Love Story

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:16 am

eK wrote:DYAM BRUTHA!

Okay: everyone! Required reading! Warpgirl's above post! The whole thing! No skimming!

(and while we read it, please go apply to Harvard lawschool, K. Off you go now. That's a good girl.)

No one has ever summed up the Trip character more accurately. :hatsoff:

There's a definite WTF aspect to his supposed psyche. Which we *may* be able to blame on the standard committee-writing and committee-directing that Trek suffers through.

BUT YES! WE'VE BROKEN THE EQUATION WIIIIDE OPEN FOLKS! lol


Pssssssssssst eK if I had not had CP I would have gone to Harvard Law in a heartbeat. THAT IS MY ULTIMATE DREAM! But it ain't happening. It's not the first time I've said it though.

Girl I didn't quote you! HACKER! :surprisehug:
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Transwarp » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:38 am

WarpGirl wrote:Ah Trip wonderful guy, really quite the catch. Handsome, intelligent, funny, strong values, nearly the perfect guy. Except for one thing, when it comes to women HE HAS NO CLUE!

Hey, that's ME!

WarpGirl wrote:And quite honestly, I don't get it. What is it about this man that makes 90% of this fandom give him a complete hall pass for every implosion in his relationship with T'Pol?

Is that ME, too? Maybe. I never intentionally mean to imply in my work that T'Pol was the source of all the problems in their initial relationship while Trip was blameless. My stories all take place AFTER that confusing hog-slop we saw in the series; I presume a solid, stable, loving relationship has (finally) developed. That's what I try to show, anyway.

I do have them reflect on those times (every now and then), but it's as an internal monologue of their individual thoughts. I tend to believe they would be harder on themselves for any mistakes (real or perceived) than their partner would. So while T'Pol might reflect on the times she unintentionally hurt Trip (and vow never to do it again), Trip would blow them off as unimportant water under the bridge. And vice versa.

WarpGirl wrote:Which leads us too Princess Fishstick! Ah not only does she prove that he doesn't need love to have sex, the person he has sex with doesn't even have to be all that likable. She spends the entire time treating him like garbage and then decides to jump him. And like he seems to do every time when a woman is the aggressor he caves like a wet paper bag.

They say write what you know. Maybe that's all the show's writers knew. Maybe they couldn't conceive of a man acting any other way. But then, it's no different from any other current TV show. When was the last time you saw someone on TV exercising sexual restraint or morality, except to be an object of ridicule? Not recently, I'll bet.

As for Harvard Law, we've got too damn many lawyers already.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby putaro » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:13 am

WarpGirl wrote:And quite honestly, I don't get it. What is it about this man that makes 90% of this fandom give him a complete hall pass for every implosion in his relationship with T'Pol? Does he get no culpability despite being a fully adult male with basic reasoning skills?

Well, I certainly don't give him a pass.

WarpGirl wrote:Which leads us too Princess Fishstick! Ah not only does she prove that he doesn't need love to have sex, the person he has sex with doesn't even have to be all that likable. She spends the entire time treating him like garbage and then decides to jump him. And like he seems to do every time when a woman is the aggressor he caves like a wet paper bag.


Well, Princess Fishsticks was a bag full of crazy, but a damned hot bag full of crazy. And Trip had been lusting after her the entire episode. It made pretty good sense that he would jump her. I didn't see a lot of sense in her wanting to jump him, but, well, that's alien princesses for you.

Now, what's more telling is how he handles the aftermath - he's not pining away for her, he's not sad that she moved on. It's no big deal.

That's why his reaction to T'Pol "sexual exploration" line makes little sense. He's not that naive. If the writers wanted to set that up, they should have shown him being all bummed out about Princess Fishsticks getting married or some such.

Now, even worse was how he dealt with T'Pol getting married to Koss. Yes, it's a big disappointment but it was pretty clearly spelled out to him what was going on. She kisses him before she goes off to marry Koss, in front of all the other Vulcans - that should be a pretty big clue about what her feelings are. Does Trip support her? No, he's just basically a dick to her about the whole thing. Once the marriage is over, he keeps on acting like she got married just to hurt him when there was really no reason for him to be hurt at all.

I think the big issue I have with Trip is he never makes much effort to understand T'Pol as both a member of a different species and as a member of a different culture. He keeps expecting her to act and behave like a human being and he gets disappointed when she doesn't.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Asso » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:25 am

I have my ideas about the feelings and behaviour of T'Pol in the famous 'morning after', as well as Trip.
For those who may like to know how I think, here's chapter of my 'Depths' explaining my ideas.
Do not worry: nothing particularly 'hot' here!! :mrgreen:

http://www.triaxiansilk.com/index.php?p ... &chapter=4
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Kotik » Thu Jun 02, 2011 9:50 am

WG, would you be anyone else, I'd now pull all stops and flame the raw stuffing out of you, but since you are you, I'll try to make it diplomatic. Your post manages to cover all the bases from the ridiculous all the way to the downright offensive.

WarpGirl wrote:At the age of 30 by his own admission he had 3 "serious" relationships that all went bust. Now I know that some guys don't want to settle down in their 20's and you know what, I'm fine with that. But I'm betting that if Trip considered these relationships "serious" he must have thought each of them had potential for a life long commitment at some point. I very much doubt ALL of the relationships ended because these women treated him horribly in some way.


Maybe not, but we know for sure that the last one ended by 'dear john' letter - just about the most classlessn way of ending a relationship.

WarpGirl wrote:Now, technically his "first" sexual encounter was a total accident of epic proportions. I'm not casting blame here, but the man is a bit of a flirt, and I'll bet he was flattered by Ah'len's attention, up to the moment he found out he was expecting. He certainly wasn't objecting to being singled out by an "attractive" funny and intelligent woman. And she certainly was assertive!


She did abuse him. Blaming what practically amounts to rape on the victim is absolutely wrong. Had she let him know that they were about to engage in sexual relations by fingering some rocks, I'm sure he'd have declined.

WarpGirl wrote:Then there's Liana probably the only one of the women shown as a potential romantic interest, who wasn't exceptionally agressive. But little girl had game. She cooked for him, asked him questions, listened with rapt attention, and flirted in a completely pure and innocent way. And boy oh boy did our guy eat it up like hot fudge on a spoon! He basked in the attention, flirted back just as hard, and made her a replicator prototype that made ice cream. It might have been the only kiss he got that he worked hard for... And come to think about it, that makes me mad.


Why does it make you mad?

WarpGirl wrote:Then there is Risa. Where we learn that even a really great and awesome guy can be a complete pig at times. Our boy had one thing on his agenda, HAVE SEX. He wasn't looking for a love or even a lasting connection. He was on the prowle. The only thing comforting about it is that he was so completely awful at it that I could laugh! Obviously he doesn't always need feelings when it comes to sex.


So he is a pig for wanting some sex? You have conveniently overlooked some minor details:
  • T'Pol had suggested the vacation for just the thing that Malcolm and Trip were trying to do
  • You seem to have remarkably less problems with Hoshi doing what Mal and Trip only tried to do
  • Trip is in no comitted relationship, so there's noone to cheat on. He did nothing immoral
  • It's not 1644 anymore. Engaging in sexual relations without intending a life-long commitment is perfectly acceptable
  • Sex without feelings is impossible. There's at least one required feeling: attraction. It would never occur to me to shag Courtney Love, because she fell off the ugly tree and hit every limb on the way down. You need to be attracted to someone (if only superficially) to have sex with that someone.

WarpGirl wrote:Which leads us too Princess Fishstick! Ah not only does she prove that he doesn't need love to have sex, the person he has sex with doesn't even have to be all that likable. She spends the entire time treating him like garbage and then decides to jump him. And like he seems to do every time when a woman is the aggressor he caves like a wet paper bag. Now that's actually a depressing thought. Now one good thing about our boy is even when he's a complete moron, he's a nice one. Actually this might be the only way to make this one forgivable.


Calling Trip a moron in that episode is just ridiculous and you really need to get off that gender horse of yours. You seemed to have missed just about every detail in that episode. If watch it again, you'll notice that Trip has long since seen through her facade of insufferability and his confrontational attitude is the only thing he can do to have her drop this facade. Both the medkit scene and their talk before she leaves the ship show that they are definitely attracted to each other.

WarpGirl wrote:And finally we come to Harbinger... Where we have our boy is quite enjoying the attention of the agressive (of course) attractive, and quite witty Amanda Cole. Now to give credit where it's due, this woman is a pretty good catch herself. Beautiful, accomplished, tough-as-nails, and smart. Added bonus is that she's a hometown girl. Looks good on paper to me. But is our boy doing much pursuit here? NOPE! Once again he didn't work for the kiss he got. I'm beginning to think he's a bit spoiled. He didn't even have to work to get her hands on his behind!


He didn't do any pursuit, because he didn't want to. The kiss was her initiative and he didn't want to have it. He's attracted to T'Pol and the whole neuropressure with amanda thing was more down to have someone from home to talk to rather than a romantic pursuit.
And now your mindbogglingly ridiculous assertation, that he's spoiled and a pig, because he didn't even have to work for getting her hand on his behind. You can't be serious :crazed: If a man slaps a woman on the butt without asking, he's a mollester, if the chick butt-slaps the man, the guy's a spoiled brat because he didn't have to work for it ?? :shock:

WarpGirl wrote:Now entering T'Pol. T'Pol who has worked night after night touching his smelly self ensuring he gets a good night's rest. T'Pol who left her career, family, possibly even facing exile all to help his people. T'Pol who has tried her darndest to give him a place where he can de-stress and feel comfortable unloading his burdens. T'Pol who told him she doesn't give a hang about gossip, and rumors. And most importantly T'Pol who has been slightly off for a while.


Ok, so she's a saint with a knack of drugging herself...

WarpGirl wrote:Now, like I said this is a 33 year old man, with basic reasoning skills and compared to T'Pol more than his fairr share of sexual encounters of several veriaties. But what does he do when she goes from 0 to warp 9 knowing that she is jealous and something is definitely not right, you guessed it... He falls apart like a wet newspaper he just falls into bed witout one thought of the consequences. Nevermind that he was rather enjoying being pursued by Cole just a few hours before...


This one just beggars belief, so I'd rather not comment on it. There's just no way to answer that without getting offensive

WarpGirl wrote:My point is this I don't believe he had any right to be upset in Harbinger! He's a grown man, one who has been around the block more than once. One who was more than willing to do a little "experimentation" with some attractive alien women of his own. If anything he should have been more supportive of T'Pol! HELLO she gave him her virginity, and she was freaking out. Totally understandable if you're the slightest bit compassionate.


Seriously, did we see the same episode. The woman he was attracted to offered herself to him. what did you expect? That he says 'um, no darling, thanx', from which she would have to logically deduce that he found her unsatisfactory? Tjere is no single instance, in which Trip actively seduced or pursuited an alien woman (except T'Pol). It was always the women doing the 'experimentation'. But of course you always end up with him to blame for it :o

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Cogito » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:33 am

Well, I don't know about any of that. But it seems to me that what we saw on the screen was not the result of a carefully considered character development and it would be a mistake to analyse everything that was said and done and assume that there is a rational and consistent character behind it all. I don't think there was. The writers had several attractive young people at their disposal and took pretty much every opportunity to show us how attractive they are and show them being attracted to each other. This isn't the characters flirting with each other; it's the writers flirting with us, the viewers. What they never did was decide who was going to form relations with whom. I'm sure this was deliberate, probably because that would immediately alienate viewers who wanted to see different relations. So Trip and T'Pol danced around each other, but we never really ruled out the possibility that she could have a relationship with Archer. Distasteful as that prospect is. Hell, I'm surprised she didn't throw herself at Reed. Oh, she did, but not really. I suppose trying to pretend she might be interested in all three of them would be a bit too much, even for these writers. Although, given the way they took a tough, intelligent, experienced, highly trained Vulcan and managed to show her as the complete opposite of all those things I suppose anything is possible.

If I'm mad at anything, it's that these characters weren't developed. They were just thrown in a bucket and tossed around for a few seasons. So much potential wasted. Luckily, we can fix that in fanfic. Just so long as we don't try to fit too closely to what we were shown on the show - because that was largely nonsensical.

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Asso » Thu Jun 02, 2011 11:52 am

Cogito wrote:Well, I don't know about any of that. But it seems to me that what we saw on the screen was not the result of a carefully considered character development and it would be a mistake to analyse everything that was said and done and assume that there is a rational and consistent character behind it all. I don't think there was. The writers had several attractive young people at their disposal and took pretty much every opportunity to show us how attractive they are and show them being attracted to each other. This isn't the characters flirting with each other; it's the writers flirting with us, the viewers. What they never did was decide who was going to form relations with whom. I'm sure this was deliberate, probably because that would immediately alienate viewers who wanted to see different relations. So Trip and T'Pol danced around each other, but we never really ruled out the possibility that she could have a relationship with Archer. Distasteful as that prospect is. Hell, I'm surprised she didn't throw herself at Reed. Oh, she did, but not really. I suppose trying to pretend she might be interested in all three of them would be a bit too much, even for these writers. Although, given the way they took a tough, intelligent, experienced, highly trained Vulcan and managed to show her as the complete opposite of all those things I suppose anything is possible.

If I'm mad at anything, it's that these characters weren't developed. They were just thrown in a bucket and tossed around for a few seasons. So much potential wasted. Luckily, we can fix that in fanfic. Just so long as we don't try to fit too closely to what we were shown on the show - because that was largely nonsensical.

What he said!
But remember, people: in any case Trip and T'Pol - I mean Trip and T'Pol together - are the only real thing. :clap: :D
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:06 pm

Well I knew some people would get upset, but I guessed the wrong ones! Oh well there's time...

Transwarp wrote:Is that ME, too? Maybe. I never intentionally mean to imply in my work that T'Pol was the source of all the problems in their initial relationship while Trip was blameless. My stories all take place AFTER that confusing hog-slop we saw in the series; I presume a solid, stable, loving relationship has (finally) developed. That's what I try to show, anyway.


Oh my dear friend, I said 90% of this fandom. You're pretty reasonable about things. Now give me my new chapter! :surprisehug:

Transwarp wrote:As for Harvard Law, we've got too damn many lawyers already.


Well... My chosen area of expertice would have been putting away child abusers for the rest of their unnatural lives! I think Shakespaere would have let those lawyers live.

Kotik for two people who have never met, we're pretty "tight" in this corner of the web. So I have to say I'm more than a little surprised that you're this angry. I mean, I don't expect people to agree with me but I didn't just decide at 1AM to deliberately do something to piss people off. So I will address some of your points but it would be bad for me to try and do all of them.

Kotik wrote:Why does it make you mad?


Why is the fact that the only kiss Trip worked for was Liana? Because I believe he's the type of guy that was always persued. And while I can certainly see why, and be inclined to do a little persuing myself, I think it hampered him. I don't think he really has an idea of how to really put his blood, sweat, and tears into a relationship. But hey I don't blame him.

Kotik wrote:So he is a pig for wanting some sex? You have conveniently overlooked some minor details:
T'Pol had suggested the vacation for just the thing that Malcolm and Trip were trying to do
You seem to have remarkably less problems with Hoshi doing what Mal and Trip only tried to do
Trip is in no comitted relationship, so there's noone to cheat on. He did nothing immoral
It's not 1644 anymore. Engaging in sexual relations without intending a life-long commitment is perfectly acceptable
Sex without feelings is impossible. There's at least one required feeling: attraction. It would never occur to me to shag Courtney Love, because she fell off the ugly tree and hit every limb on the way down. You need to be attracted to someone (if only superficially) to have sex with that someone.


No I didn't overlook those things, and if you need me too I'll address them...

1. Yeah I know she did. Doesn't mean everyone went down to the beach looking to "get some." And it just shows how little T'Pol actually understood about sex. During that time she might have thought going to a brothal was a logical solution. Hence her remarks about the Risans and their "willingness to ease tensions."

2. Malcolm is a "pig" too!

3. I HATE what Hoshi did. But in her defense it wasn't what she set out to do. And in her case it was more about affection then physical gratification.

4. I never said Trip was hurting anyone.

5. It might not be 1644 anymore, but just because society by and large believes that sex without strings is okay, does NOT mean everyone on the planet believes that. I DON'T. And no I will not appologize for that. In any case, my issue with Trip, Malcolm, and HOSHI is that they were perfectly fine with sleeping with someone and more than likely never seeing them again.

6. I disagree that attraction is a feeling. It's a biological reaction which nobody has any control over. If it was a feeling, nobody would pay for sex, or sexual stimulation. Last I heard strip clubs still make a ton of money!

Kotik wrote:Ok, so she's a saint with a knack of drugging herself...


T'Pol was NOT a saint! And later, I'll write a long post detailing what a mess she was okay. Quid Pro Quo!

@ Putaro I pretty much agree with everything you said except about, Home. I'll get into that later.

Cogito wrote:Just so long as we don't try to fit too closely to what we were shown on the show - because that was largely nonsensical.


Sometimes, "Kill all the lawyers" can be applied to writers. Case in point, killing off Talas! :hug:

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Silverbullet » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:42 pm

Go to bed and you all write up a storm.

On another board there was a woman who is an ardent Archer/T'Pol'er She said that When T'Pol dropped her Robe Trip should have put his nose in the air, stalked out of the room saying "I am too mature for this." Never had the heart to ask her if that had been Archer in Trip's place what would she have Archer do? She also said that everything T'Pol did was to comfort Trip. She would not admit that there might have been any kind of attraction between the two. He Sig was "Admiral and T'Pol Archer...."

Risa, T'Pol said the crew had to get laid. Pure and simple. She thought the crew was Horney and needed to get thier Ashes hauled. So Trip and Malcom were mde to look like idiots by the writers. Hoshi gets some and Archer gets taken for a ride.

T'Pol had to intend seducing Trip. NO other explanation for being naked under that Robe. She always wore Pajamas during the NP sessions. Not doing so was OOC. She probably had every intention of continuing the relationship afterwards. Why she did an about face is beyond me. She wasn't a little 13 year old who paniced after surrenering her virginity. She was an adult vulcan woman in her 6th decade. She had been an iintelligence operative, She was a Scientist. She supposedly had command experience. She was mature enough to handle what happened because she initiated it.

Trip's reaction. The guy had been seduced by the woman of his dreams. Hthey had at least one maybe more sexual intercourses. They must have tlaked during and afterwards. I can't believe they simply did the dirty and was silent afterwards. Trip would have been stunned by her attitude the next morning. It was apparent that he expected something else. She bsically told him that what had happened the night before had no meaning for her. It was just an exploration or experiment as Trip put it. That will throw cold water on any guy. What should he do? I think he showed admirable restraint. He probably was testing when he said they could continue the NP sessions. If you watch the episode again look at T'Pol's face during the entire exchange. What she is saying is not reflected in her face.

As for the other females. He never did anything with Ah'len, nor the blonde in the stranded ship other than give her a replicator which made Rocky Road Ice Cream. Fishstick. It was the princess who was the agressor not Trip. Not that he fought her off but she initiated it. She later said that if he should come around she would not be unhappy.

Problem with Harbinger was that it was cut off right after the last kiss. We never saw what happened next. Did T'Pol rip his clothes off and drag him kicking and screaming in to bed or did they both strip, fall into the bunk and get on with it.

Cogito, many times the attraction in a one night stand is the willingness of the female to have it. If you are looking right you can see the come on and get it look. That is just Sex. Relations with someone you care for is entirely different.

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Brandyjane » Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:39 pm

I get what you're saying, WarpGirl. I didn't get the feeling that you were blaming Trip 100% for their relationship problems. If you were, then we would have a pretty significant disagreement. As I see it, both Trip and T'Pol have some pretty serious personality issues that will make it difficult for them to sustain a relationship with anyone.

T'Pol is insecure. For whatever reason, she's always been more emotional than your average Vulcan, and she engages in self-destructive behavior. Her first instincts about Tolaris were that he was trouble. Just watch how she literally keeps backing away from him in "Fusion." Yet she chooses to ignore her instinctual response and go with him. (Sorry, I'm really not trying to blame the victim. Really, I'm not!) She takes drugs so she can feel emotions! She has sex with a human. These are not things that "stable" Vulcans do. Throw in her screwed up relationship with her mother, the mental breakdown we learn she had in "The Seventh," and whatever issues she has relating to the absence of her father, and what you have is one messed up Vulcan. I don't believe she's a lost cause, though. I truly think that with the guidance of the Kirshara and the love of Trip, she can find tranquility and order.

Trip, on the other hand, seems on the surface to be the perfect guy. He's handsome, brilliant, charming, polite, extroverted, etc. But the more I watch the episodes, the more I think he was suffering from some sort of trauma long before season three. He's an extrovert who wears his heart on his sleeve - except he's not. He hides his true deep feelings and he isolates himself when he experiences pain. As far back as "Silent Enemy" (when he skips dinner with Jon and T'Pol after getting Natalie's letter), Trip retreats from others when he's going through something rough. We also learn that even in season one ("Fusion") Trip has trouble sleeping. WarpGirl did a great job of taking us through his trouble taking the initiative with women.

What all of this says to me about Trip is that there is something going on inside his head that we - that no one, perhaps - knows about. For a long time I've thought that Trip probably suffered from some traumatic experience long ago, perhaps as a young child. Maybe it was abuse, maybe he saw someone he loved die - I don't know. I just get the feeling that Trip's happy-go-lucky, confident, emotional, open personality is just a facade and that the "real" Trip is the insecure, closed-off Trip we see in the last two seasons.

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:18 pm

Brandyjane wrote:I get what you're saying, WarpGirl. I didn't get the feeling that you were blaming Trip 100% for their relationship problems. If you were, then we would have a pretty significant disagreement. As I see it, both Trip and T'Pol have some pretty serious personality issues that will make it difficult for them to sustain a relationship with anyone.


AMEN! And I will get to T'Pol!


Brandyjane wrote:What all of this says to me about Trip is that there is something going on inside his head that we - that no one, perhaps - knows about. For a long time I've thought that Trip probably suffered from some traumatic experience long ago, perhaps as a young child. Maybe it was abuse, maybe he saw someone he loved die - I don't know. I just get the feeling that Trip's happy-go-lucky, confident, emotional, open personality is just a facade and that the "real" Trip is the insecure, closed-off Trip we see in the last two seasons.


I can see the case for him having a trauma. Dinah did it so brilliantly in Thorn and the Rose. That said, I can also see it as the simple fact that Trip didn't have to actively pursue his romantic relationships. He is such a great guy that he would naturally draw women. So someone from a culture where the men will literally kill and die for their women is not something he's be prepared for.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Brandyjane » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:30 pm

WarpGirl wrote:I can see the case for him having a trauma. Dinah did it so brilliantly in Thorn and the Rose.


I just finished that story. Loved it! Unfortunately now I don't know where to go with my own story idea, since I had something similar in mind but Dinah already did it, and did it better than I probably would have been able to do.

WarpGirl wrote:That said, I can also see it as the simple fact that Trip didn't have to actively pursue his romantic relationships. He is such a great guy that he would naturally draw women. So someone from a culture where the men will literally kill and die for their women is not something he's be prepared for.


Oh, definitely! I see Trip as a guy who sort of falls into relationships. He's cute, charming, brilliant, and polite. All he has to do is just be himself (or, be the self he lets the world see), and a woman will pounce on him. Amanda Cole stated it very well in "Harbinger" when she said, "What's not to like? He's a gentleman, he's great to be around, and he has very nice arms."

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:51 pm

It's precisely because of the factthat he's never actively pursued a relationship even with T'Pol that he screws up some times. He's not used to doing the "heavy lifting." Even his break up with Natalie is an indicator with this. The only thing that upsets him was that he "didn't get the chance to say goodbye." To me this says that he wasn't expecting her to wait for him. But he didn't end the relationship on his own. The guy has no assertiveness when it comes to relationships at all. The only time he shows any push at all is in Daedalus and he has the worst timing in the history of interspeices coupledom!

Like I said, Trip is a good man! But he needs to grow the heck up! At his age there has to come a time when you have to take responsibilities for your own choices and actions. He made his choices, there were consequences. How did he deal with those? He left. Right, wrong, or otherwise he's a grown man!
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Asso
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Asso » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:26 pm

Brandyjane wrote:What all of this says to me about Trip is that there is something going on inside his head that we - that no one, perhaps - knows about. For a long time I've thought that Trip probably suffered from some traumatic experience long ago, perhaps as a young child. Maybe it was abuse, maybe he saw someone he loved die - I don't know. I just get the feeling that Trip's happy-go-lucky, confident, emotional, open personality is just a facade and that the "real" Trip is the insecure, closed-off Trip we see in the last two seasons.

That Trip can hide inside much more than he shows outside ... well this is definitely something that can be shared by most. After all, you cannot think of him as a boy never grown, one-dimensional and no depth, the way that not infrequently he was shown on the screen.

And I think that the actor, with his own abilities, has contributed not a little to push - at least a little - the authors out from their wrong-headed intent to make this character, so full of potential, nothing else than a silly and tasteless figure of contour, that is, in my opinion, what should have been intended by them. I think he, so to say even against the will itself of the writers, became something different from the mere comic counterpoint to the already predetermined love story that should have been developed between the intrepid Captain and the exotic alien woman and cold, who eventually would inevitably fall at the foot of the Great Conqueror of Space, the defender of the Human Race: the brave and unconquerable Archer.

And, if I must be honest, I often found myself thinking that all this (I mean the unexpected direction that the series had taken) led the authors to a sort of love-hate for Trip.
I cannot explain in a better way the absurd and inane continuous ballet that they forced to dance Trip with T'Pol. Almost as if they wanted to say, unconsciously: so now you two are the protagonists? And you two are in love with each other, too? And your love, your love story, it is very loved, in addition? In this case, you two must suffer, damned! Suffer, suffer!

And then, you know: more tears, more drama! Consequently, more audience. Yeah.

If you think about it, even the so-called end (you know what I mean) of the series seems to reflect this ambiguous feeling. Think about it: Trip dies, and, in a sense, he dies as a hero. Not only that: it is clearly stated that between him and T'Pol there was a love story. And, after all, the whole episode revolves around him.

Yeah, sure. But ...

What a stupid hero he proves to be!
And the love story between him and T'Pol ... Well, there was, of course, but now there no longer is. Not only that, but what clearly (think of those hands that are intertwined in mutual consolation and hope) should have been the final push toward their clear and definitive union (finally!), it has turned (I think we have to think that it has been so ) into a further and conclusive cause of separation.
And as for the fact that the episode seems to revolve around him ... well, isn't it a bit strange that in the end, when the great Archer makes his important speech, there is not the slightest mention of Trip? He seems to disappear into nothingness, the nothingness where the authors have subconsciously wanted to push him.

My friends, I can understand all, but not what is not understandable!

All this leads me to share and simultaneously to reject what Brandyjane says. I mean that the Trip of the last two seasons, especially the last, seems much more mature, but at the same time too insecure, too closed-off, using Brandyjane's words. Basically, I am persuaded, he is a sunny and strong character, and it's hard to believe that he would not have been able to react to a tragedy of youth, or at least I think he would have reacted differently. Think about his reaction with Malcolm about the death of his sister: when I think about that scene, I am thinking that it was the actor who wanted it, rather than the authors. It is a scene really fitting to the real Trip, not to the flabby man that sometimes the authors are pleased to show.

Oh well! I talked too much.
A little of silence, now.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
Image

But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:40 pm

Asso one thing that is very important to remember that in American showbusiness an actor on TV who does not get a producing credit gets VERY LITTLE to say about the direction his character goes into. This is especially true of ST! GR and the killer B's were notoriously closed minded about what they wanted their characters to do and go. Many a Trek actor argued about this and some were even harshly punished. So if CT and JB wanted to work they had to keep quiet. Actors are people who must pay their bills. Look at what JB herself had to say about *the_abomination* and her character. CT was not as blunt about it, but he's also expressed dis-satisfaction. Bottom line it is a business. There are rules.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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