Romance vs. Love Story

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby panyasan » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:41 pm

I agree that Trip and T'Pol both suffer from insecurity issue, maybe rooted in family issues (T'Pols father death). They both have more in common then we may think. Trip was at first very eager to find out what was out there and has a sort of innocence. T'Pol is curious as well, she is always somewhat innocent at time. I thinks she has been very curious about human sexuality (and problably a couple of misconceptions). In Harbinger she has this look at her face before she kisses Trip that she is somewhat afraid to do it, but also very intrigued to do it. It's fascinating to her. She want to experience to touch Trip, but is also a bit afraid and overwhelmed.

As for Trip: he also comes across as a guy who takes his relationships seriously. He tries to make it work.
Ah'len: he liked her, she was an engineer as he and he was interesting in new techologies. So they had a kind of friendship. Then she invites him to a game and before he know it, he is pregnant. There is nothing funny about his situation and he was totally not to blame. He was certainly not looking for sex.
Lianne: yes, she was sweet and innocent and nice. Can't you blame a guy for liking her?
Princess Fishstick: I didn't like Trips actions in this episode. Must be a gender thing. I was very annoyed by Trips actions, but hubs has this look like "way to go, Trip."
Risa: I was a 30-year old virgin (and proud of it! :D ) when I got married and not a party girl, so I get WG's objections agains the attiude of Trip, Malcolm and Hoshi on the Risa-trip. However, Trip and Malcolm are single, wanting to have a good time, so they aren't cheating on some one. They are just single young men who think they can party.

To conclude: both Trip and T'Pol aren't perfect. I agree Trip should have more interest in her Vulcan background, but the Vulcan herself was trying to figure out what it meant to be Vulcan. For me she is still the strong, wonderful woman that I like and Trip the nicest and smartest guy I know. I am sure they can make their romance into a love story. :mrgreen:

@Asso: just read your post. I agree. I think CT and JB often disagree with the direction the characters took. For example I remember an interview in which Jolene express difficulty to do a certain scene. She asked a couple time if this was the way the directors wanted her to play. (She did as the directors asked of course). Looking back she was problably refering to the scene in which T'Pols addiction was shown. (Personally I never liked this - in TOS you had a perfect scene when Spock is able to express his feelings towards a woman and is very happy - due to some drugs. But never is he made a fool of weak. )
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Asso » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:55 pm

WarpGirl wrote:Asso one thing that is very important to remember that in American showbusiness an actor on TV who does not get a producing credit gets VERY LITTLE to say about the direction his character goes into. This is especially true of ST! GR and the killer B's were notoriously closed minded about what they wanted their characters to do and go. Many a Trek actor argued about this and some were even harshly punished. So if CT and JB wanted to work they had to keep quiet. Actors are people who must pay their bills. Look at what JB herself had to say about *the_abomination* and her character. CT was not as blunt about it, but he's also expressed dis-satisfaction. Bottom line it is a business. There are rules.

My friend, you give strength to my thinking.

And by golly, if things are as you say CT must really be a crackerjack to be able to conduct things in a somewhat different from what the authors would have wanted.
I want to tell you something, WarpGirl: CT himself revealed this fact in an interview.

Oh damn! I spoke again! :nerd:
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:08 pm

I'm sure they did. But they still had to work and eat.

Any way, I'm not trying to say Trip is bad. Only that he deserves some culpability for the failure of his relationship with T'Pol on screen.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Asso » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:23 pm

Sometimes it makes me think that the two of us speak really a different language. But not the language in the sense of language, I mean the language of thought.
Probably Trip was right when he didn't reveal his love to T'Pol. He wasn't culpable, he was wise. If you and I, born in the same planet, are unable to understand one another, I don't dare think about those two poor beings.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:35 pm

That's entirely possible Asso. I'm sure the fact that I don't think in Italian and you don't think in English doesn't make it any easier. Every once in a great while I'm tempted to use the translator and write a post in Italian just to see what would happen. But in the end it doesn't matter, nobody here is required to agree with anyone else. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I have an unshakable belief that it takes one person to destroy a relationship, but it takes two to make it work.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Asso » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:40 pm

It would suffice only a little effort, Warpgirl. It is not difficult. But you have to want it.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:45 pm

It's more than just "wanting" it. People also have to be willing to do what is necessary to make it work, including sacrificing what makes them comfortable, even happy at times, in order to do what is best for the relationship. That is the difference between the "romance" and the "love" in a romance you can want like crazy. In love you actually DO!
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Asso » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:48 pm

Oh bah, I tried again.
I'm an idiot.
Enough.
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four


And here is the beginning of the whole story.
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But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Jun 02, 2011 6:49 pm

I don't understand Asso did I say something to make you upset? If I did it was unintentional.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby putaro » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:34 am

Cogito wrote:If I'm mad at anything, it's that these characters weren't developed. They were just thrown in a bucket and tossed around for a few seasons. So much potential wasted. Luckily, we can fix that in fanfic. Just so long as we don't try to fit too closely to what we were shown on the show - because that was largely nonsensical.


And that's the real shame of it. I think the actors did an amazing job with the material they were given.

Though, if the writing hadn't been such a hash, I'm not sure if I, personally, would be motivated to write fanfic about the show.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:37 am

Too true! I used to swear to never write any Trek fic. Then I met the dysfunctional ENT and I said "Oh dear these characters deserve something more." All of them! Even the ones I don't like, all of the "regulars" all of them were so tragically handled.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:00 pm

Okay I had my say about Trip's problems in relationships. And in the interest of all fairness, and to prove that I'm not out to demonize the poor guy, I'm going to give T'Pol her fair share of the hot mess. It does take two to tango you know...

I've spent a lot of time working out what I believe T'Pol's biggest weakness is that makes her have so many problems in relationships. And as much as I hate to say it, I think it comes down to her sense of self-worth. The woman doesn't have one! Now, this isn't uncommon in Trek; B'Elanna didn't have one either about herself as a person. Although at least she had one about her professional abilities. T'Pol didn't even have much of that. But I'll get to that later...

Unfortunately we're shown throughout the series that T'Pol is regularly bombarded with the ways she isn't quite good enough, both for Vulcans, and humans. From childhood on her mother and other Vulcans pounded it into her head that her emotions were, "too close to the surface", that her control was never quite good enough. And let's face it, when you're in a society that needs such strenuous control to survive and function the knowledge that you're not good enough can be devestating. People are basically telling you you're dangerous.

We don't know anything about T'Pol's father other than that he's gone, and that T'Les, and T'Pol obviously loved him very much. Since T'Pol is so young in the series, it's reasonable to conclude that she lost her father very young. That takes it's toll, Spock had his father for almost two centuries and their relationship was often strained to the limit. Yet when Sarek died Spock was so devestated in showed on his face. I can only imagine how much worse it could be for a child.

So with that rocky childhood as a foundation T'Pol joins the Ministry of Security, and becomes the equiviliant of a US Marshall hunting down fugitives. Now quite frankly, this particular development has always bothered me to the extreme! Now Vulcans are so long-lived that having many careers isn't so surprising. But it doesn't make much sense for T'Pol. When she was a young girl, she "idolized" V'Lar, she was interested in diplomacy and the peace process. Does this fit with hunting down criminals? I don't see the connection. In any case, I can't think of a worse fit for her. I could more easily see T'Pau doing it. T'Pol is a strong woman in a lot of ways, but she simply isn't "tough" enough for the grim reality of that life. Her complete and total breakdown is proof of that. And although I think The Seventh is in the top 5 worst ENT episodes ever aired it made that point. In a horribly cheesy condecending way... Better get off that track.

Anyhow her breakdown is just another batch of proof to other Vulcans and herself that she's just not up to par. And she's getting an even larger inferiority complex. Thank god she had a period of some relative peace during her time as a science officer on the Seleya, I'd even hazzard a guess that it was the happiest time of her life up to that point.

But it's obvious that she didn't intend to make science her main career. I truly think she felt diplomacy would be her life. It seems that in order to get in the diplomatic sphere some military experience in any form is a requirement in the 22nd century. But she obviously did well, she was a highly regarded officer by the VHC.

So when she finally gets to where she wants to be she's confronted with us humans, and 'lo and behold, they don't like her much either. Where in her own family she's told that her control is defective, here with us she's viewed as someone without courtesy, compassion, and having no respect for the feelings and beliefs of others. To tell you the truth if it was me I'd say, Screw this! I'm going back to science where I am appreciated!

Look at her introduction to Archer, he opens with...
You have no idea how much I'm restraining myself from knocking you on your ass.


Oh yeah, that inspires confidence! There is this AMAZING quote from one of my very favorite Vulcans Tuvok...
"On the contrary, the demands on a Vulcan's character are extraordinarily difficult. Do not mistake composure for ease."


And he wasn't even being physically threatened that day!!!! So here's our girl, who already has troble dealing with her own people, and now she's assigned to deal with this crew of up-start humans who neither want her there, nor are inclined to give her any basic courtesy. I wonder why she took the job at all sometimes.

Which brings us to her introduction to Trip. Okay for the record he was pretty darn charming, from a human perspective... But come on, there was also quite a bit of mockery there. Now, granted he certainly wasn't intending to be mean, but he was trying to freak her out a bit, and let her know she wasn't welcome with open arms. Girl got the message! And the poor thing was a bit freaked out. Otherwise she wouldn't have pointed out...
I didn't request this assignment Captain, and you can be certain that when the mission's over I'll be as pleased to leave this ship as you'll be to have me go.


Thus far not an auspicious beginning. And to add injury to insults she ends up stuck in decon with a smelly human who sends out some very confuing signals. On the one hand he doesn't trust her, doesn't particularly like her, and isn't interested in changing that. On the other hand, he's sending off wave after wave of physical attraction mixed with healthy doses of obstinence and agression! Worst of all, he's attractive! And I will bet every dollar in my meager bank account that being attracted to a human even if only physically at this point has never been a problem for our girl. Her control might be considered "bad" but not that bad. So this is another body blow to an already fragile self-esteem.

Still, never let it be said our girl isn't brave and determined when she believes something is right. And something about these humans tells her it's right to stick around. There's something about them that draws her. And that part of her that has been longing for acceptence is desperate enough to want to make this work. They invited her, so they must have decided she's worth something to them. So it's a start. It also explains why she'd offer her loyalty to Archer. He decided he wanted her there. Actually the transcript is very telling...
ARCHER: T'Pol, would you stick around for a minute? Ever since I can remember, I've seen Vulcans as an obstacle, always keeping us from standing on our own two feet.
T'POL: I understand.
ARCHER: No, I don't think you do. If I'm going to pull this off, there are a few things I have to leave behind. Things like preconceptions, holding grudges. This mission would've failed without your help.
T'POL: I won't dispute that.
ARCHER: I was thinking. A Vulcan Science Officer could come in handy, but if I asked you to stay it might look like I wasn't ready to do this on my own.
T'POL: Perhaps you should add pride to your list.
ARCHER: Perhaps I should.
T'POL: It might be best if I were to contact my superiors and make the request myself. With your permission.
ARCHER: Permission granted.


Methinks the poor girl just wants to be needed!

Okay now she's in YEY! Or not... Seriously, if she had been human I don't think she would have gotten through the first week without losing it with what all they put her through. She can't even have a meal without some form of critique: her silence, her vegitarianism, (which was utterly rediculous) the fact that she doesn't eat food with her hands... And even when she's not around there are remarks, like Trip's Archer's remarks about her trouble with chop sticks. I can't use them either! Now again I realize that nobody was trying to be cruel here, this is human nature. But for T'Pol it's just more re-enforcment that she's an outsider, and not accepted for who she is.

Professionally things aren't much better. Trip get's mad because she changed the sensors without asking, understandable. However, right wrong or otherwise Archer allowed her to take on duties of XO even if it isn't her offical title. And this isn't the thread to debate it. We already have one!

Technically, as head of the science department, and XO, she doesn't need Trip's permission. And Trip's not shy about expressing his opinions in front of others even publically saying he'd like to "Shove her out the airlock", which underminds her position in front of all the Junior crew. He rashly countermands her orders in Civilization and that's a no no. Even worse, with the way Archer and Trip treat her advice and ideas this attitude trickles down to people like Hoshi.

Okay this is gonna take a while so I'm gonna stop here, we can discuss a bit, then I'll move forward deal?
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Cogito » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:08 pm

I don't know whether we ever saw any real clue about what T'Pol's father did, but sometimes people write about him having been a security operative of some sort. To me that would seem like a natural reason for a rebellious young girl with a difficult relationship with her mother, to want to follow in her beloved father's footsteps instead of following the career path that her mother had mapped out for her. How much more traumatising, then, to discover that you weren't tough enough for it?

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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby WarpGirl » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:16 pm

Like I said we know nothing about her dad at all. It is fanon that he was in The Ministry of Security. And it is reasonable to conclude that, it might be the reason T'Pol chose that path early in life. But the truth is we don't know. That said, fathers are much more important to their daughters than is usually presented in society. They are our first experience dealing with men and it shapes how we will do so forever. Losing him so young was tragic and probably left indelible marks. It also explains why someone with T'Pol's "differences" thought nothing about the fact she met her Fiancee 4 times in 62 years. That's a bit atypical. Even if her parents only met once.
Some of these people haven't taken their medication. Let's see what happens now...
Donna Moss: The West Wing


And by people WG had herself in mind, but then the quote would have been ruined.
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Re: Romance vs. Love Story

Postby Silverbullet » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:46 pm

Think the way T'Pol was written she came across as weak at time and confused at other times. She got herself addicted to TD. She allowed Tolaris to get far too close and paid for it. She was never shown to be the Vulcan ex intelligence operative who was highly trained in the martial arts of Vulcan.

In both Demons and Terra Prime she docily goes along being dragged by one or another guard. She enver tried to nerve pinch one, grab his weaapon and go looking for Trip. Or go after Paxton. She often was prtrayed as a damsel in distress. The seventh is a good example. It took Super Archer to save the day. While she stood by.

I remeber in Chosen Realm she tried to wrestle a man from her seat at the science consul. He shoved her away easily. That should not have happened. T'Pol was written very poorly. As JB said she was given all sorts of bad episodes. She (JB) really hated Bounty.

Had T'Pol been written well with some continuity she may have come off better. But it seems that when the writers wanted someone to beat up on T'Pol was chosen.

Her relationship with Trip could have been handled far better. It not need take up much time, less than ten percent of all the Episodes. A scene or two would suffice to keep it alive but not to intrude in the main line. Writers couldn't even handle that.

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