Refusing to Fight?

[Alelou]

There's a fascinating article in the NYTimes by a woman who just plain refused to get upset when her husband told her he didn't love her anymore ... and how it eventually worked out:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/fashi ... ve.html?em

As I was reading it I thought -- no way in hell would Trip or T'Pol be able to pull this off (not that they have the history that would allow it in the first place). And yet there is something here -- I don't know -- like the way Trip just wouldn't give it up in Season 3. I could also kind of envision something like this for them 20 years down the road.

Anyway, on one level this woman's argument makes a ton of sense to me. But I don't think I could pull it off. I'm not sure I know many people who could, except perhaps when both spouses go through their crises a little more discreetly, without bringing them out and announcing them to each other, and eventually get past them.

Anyway, I'm just throwing it out because it's so interesting.

[WarpGirl]

Honestly Alelou to quote the author "I don't buy it!" While intellectually I understand the concept, and I even think she was right about her husband that's just not healthy or normal. My Counselor would have had a field day with this. And frankly I don't think this has any comparison to TnT. T'Pol was in no way like this husband, they did not have a two decade relationship built on respect, love, and they certainly didn't have any spiritual or legal commitment to honor. But no way would this situation would happen to them, just because that isn't how Vulcan brains work, and they are bonded you know. I don't see your point. I'm shocked, you're the one who said *the_abomination* is a bad holo-program. It was however one of the freakiest articals I have ever read.

[Alelou]

Maybe I just wanted to hear people's reactions to the article, which I found very compelling. The reactions of people on the website there were fascinating, too. I suppose partly I wanted to see if various people here would react to it the way I thought they would.

(Which you did.)

I'm kind of torn about it myself. Is this woman being a grown-up or a fool? Is this guy having a somewhat understandable crisis, or is he an irredeemable jerk? Is this a good marriage worth saving? I suspect those of us who have been married longer, or have children, may have a little more sympathy for the situation.

And no, I know it's not really particularly relevant to TnT, especially since they don't have kids. That changes these equations pretty dramatically for a lot of people. To tell you the truth, though, I could imagine Trip someday having a crisis like this.

[justTripn]

Wow. That is thought provoking.

It matches with another life-changing peice of advice I found in a women's magazine one time while at the beauty parlor: No one, not even a significant other can "make you happy." No one can "make you happy" but yourself. You are responsible for your own happiness.

It was listed under an article called "Ten Myths that You Need to Stop Believing to Have a Happy Life" or something to that effect.

Anyway, Alelou, I think that the article you linked to is a wonderful answer to a myth often perpetuated in romance stories, that the marriage relationship depends on this constant overpowering loving feeling towards one's spouse (to the exclusion of other people) and any blip in that status should cause one to question whether they should really be married to that person.

Another myth you need to give up according to the article I read: One day you will meet a significant other who loves you even more than you love themself.

Reality: Everyone loves themself the most. That is just natural.

Which brings us back to you need to make yourself happy. The practical example they gave was. Some woman wait for their spouses to come up with spontanous thoughtful gestures and then get mad if they don't. The practical example in the article was:

No, he doesn't care more than you do about your birthday. If you want a particular present, you might want to just buy it yourself, give it to him, and announce that this is what you want for your birthday. Instead of blaming him for not being thoughtful enouph.

[WarpGirl]

I can't see Trip going through that and handling it that way. I can see him going through a mid-life crises sure, but I can't see him dealing with it like that. As to the questions you raise I think the artical was way too generic to try and even hint at any of the parites motivations or even to form an idea about their life. As I said I get the point but her reaction wasn't healthy as she described it.

And while I know a single 25 year old woman with no children has limited experience with relationships, I've seen good ones and bad ones, I've seen good ones go bad, and bad ones turn great. So While I won't say I understand everything. I know enough. I'm sorry my sister tells me I'm stupid and know nothing about marriage it annoys me.

[justTripn]

I wrote a story in which Trip has a crisis like this in the E-squared universe. So yes, I am certain Trip could have a crisis like this. Of couse I had to write in a break in the "bond" in order to tell an interesting story. Sci-fi elements should be used to facilitate not hinder relevant story-telling. Relevant to HUMANS. I doubt I have any Vulcan readers. Or even any human readers in marriages to Vulcans.

[WarpGirl]

Some of the human readers read stories because we WANT the sci-fi in the stories. Just saying.

[Distracted]

I could maybe do this to some extent, but I would hope that I'd figure out that my husband was dissatisfied before he got to the stage where he was ready to leave. This woman doesn't sound like she's a very effective communicator. She said she was working on her own "crisis" of sorts, so she had the information at her fingertips. She didn't use it soon enough. These guys needed to sit down and talk WAY before he decided to leave.

I'm thinking that she finally just wore him down with sheer obstinacy. He gave up on the idea of leaving because he couldn't get a rise out of her. Maybe he threatened to leave BECAUSE he thought she wasn't emotionally invested in the relationship anymore. Acting the way she did could have backfired on her. It sure sounds like she acted like she didn't care much one way or the other if he left. That's not healthy.

Not that she should have raged and screamed. I think that staying calm and offering him alternatives to picking up and leaving was certainly reasonable, but she set no guidelines. What was he doing while he was staying out late? I sure wouldn't have taken him back without sending him to the doctor for STD testing and insisting on six months of celibacy to make sure he didn't catch anything while he was out.

[justTripn]

Some of the human readers read stories because we WANT the sci-fi in the stories. Just saying.

Yes, I had plenty of sci-fi in the story, but it all facilitated addressing some relevant social issue. Like the question:

1) How does a Human-Vulcan child (Lorian) self-identify. (The sci fi element is Human's and Vulcan's can reproduce.) It's allegorical to the question of how do biracial children self-identify.

2) What happens if an adolecent feels drawn towards forms of intimacy that are taboo in his culture? In my story, Lorian finds he likes to mindmeld and has been told that it's wrong. The analogies are to a) Sex in general, which for an adolescent child has been taboo at least in the past (we hope!); b) Uh . . . the "M" word: and c) Homosexual sex.

3) What if someone (Lorian, T'Pol) has a biological need to have sex or they die? Are arranged marriages wrong? Is sex with a friend, primarily for the sake of sex, always wrong? Is prostitution always wrong!

4) It was also about the pressure put on children to live up to their parents expectations. In this case the expectations put on Lorian (to save the world) were so extreme, they count as a sci fi element.

[justTripn]

I could maybe do this to some extent, but I would hope that I'd figure out that my husband was dissatisfied before he got to the stage where he was ready to leave. This woman doesn't sound like she's a very effective communicator. She said she was working on her own "crisis" of sorts, so she had the information at her fingertips. She didn't use it soon enough. These guys needed to sit down and talk WAY before he decided to leave.

I'm thinking that she finally just wore him down with sheer obstinacy. He gave up on the idea of leaving because he couldn't get a rise out of her. Maybe he threatened to leave BECAUSE he thought she wasn't emotionally invested in the relationship anymore. Acting the way she did could have backfired on her. It sure sounds like she acted like she didn't care much one way or the other if he left. That's not healthy.

Not that she should have raged and screamed. I think that staying calm and offering him alternatives to picking up and leaving was certainly reasonable, but she set no guidelines. What was he doing while he was staying out late? I sure wouldn't have taken him back without sending him to the doctor for STD testing and insisting on six months of celibacy to make sure he didn't catch anything while he was out.

On the other hand, the story matches with advice on a radio talk show I heard the other day. A young woman called to say she had "trust issues" with her boyfriend. She had once cheated on him. He knew and had forgiven her, but now he often flirted with other women and that made her nervious. What should she do?

The counselor told her she had two options: 1) Keep him on a short chain, watching over him and nagging, and ultimately losing him when he has had enough her lack of trust. 2) Decide to trust him and treat him as if she trusts him. Because in the end he will stay if he decides he loves her enouph to stay and not otherwise. It really is out of her control.

[Distracted]

Sure, she's got no control over his behavior. There's no point in screaming or crying. She CAN lay out her expectations for his return, though. No woman should be forced to take her partner back after he's sowed his wild oats unless she's sure that sowing them didn't involve behavior that might risk her life. Understanding someone's emotional turmoil and being supportive while they work things out for themselves is one thing. Risking one's life is another.

Even if she decides to forgive him and take him back, she can insist on seeing test results and refuse to have sex with him until he's past his HIV conversion window. Or she can decide that it's too much trouble to worry about whether he's caught something which might kill her and tell him to take a hike. Either way, she should have control over her own safety.

[WarpGirl]

Listen to the doctor she knows what she's saying. Like I said that artical wasn't nearly detailed enough to support any true conclusion on that family. BUT what was said makes me believe that BOTH parties have severe problems. I don't see a comparison with TnT at all.

PS. jT When I said scifi I meant the "bond" itself. Because it's physiological and alien and COOL!

[Alelou]

I also have to wonder, Distracted, about that part -- she doesn't say anything about their sex lives (or lack thereof). And it can be a matter of life and death. Of course, that can be an issue whether you suspect someone's unhappy in the marriage or not.

I recently read a book called Mating in Captivity that asks whether too much intimacy can actually bad for a sexual relationship (i.e. marriage). The author brings a somewhat European eye to our American beliefs about marriage and I suspect she would approve of this woman's pragmatic approach. I found it really interesting, but then I'm obviously finding all these questions about marriage interesting.

[Distracted]

I suspect we're missing a substantial part of the puzzle. The woman sounds like she's had therapy, or at least like she's been spending a hell of a lot of time in the self-help section of the bookstore. She's even quoting psychological child-rearing theories in the article. It's entirely possible that it was the changes she underwent after therapy or after absorbing all that psychology that prompted him to decide he didn't love her anymore. If she was a typical long suffering housewife for 20 years, not talking back and doing everything to please her husband, and suddenly after therapy she decides that life's too short to put up with her husband's shit anymore, he may have gotten spooked by her new persona and decided he didn't like it. And then after a while he grew to respect her strength and discovered that he didn't really want to leave after all. She makes it sound like it was all him, but I doubt very seriously that we have the whole picture.

And maybe STD risk isn't an issue in this case. Maybe he was just out with the boys or going bowling or something. I mean, he's a middle aged farmer, likely overweight and bald. Maybe in their small town his wife felt confident that he had no likely opportunities to stray. Or maybe since they're back together now she didn't want to embarrass them both by even bringing up the topic of extramarital sex.

[Alelou]

Could be. I think, though, that a LOT of women as they get into middle age tend to develop that "I'm not going to let your shit get me down" attitude after awhile. We're so focused on pleasing others when we're younger, and judging from what I've seen and experienced myself you just start thinking about yourself more as you get into your forties. (Perhaps that's why some guys gravitate to younger women, besides the obvious reasons that one guy in my writing group explained to me as "Why wouldn't you want one with a later expiration date?")

Losing your ability to support your family really is a completely unnerving experience for most guys, though. We've already seen Trip deal (not terribly well) with a loss in his life. I think if he became disabled, for example, he'd be an emotional trainwreck, and his nearest and dearest would really be in for it. T'Pol would sure as heck need that bond to help her cope with all that.