Kind of wife TPol would be?

[honeybee]

Right, one of my key objections to the breakup in *the_abomination* is the existence of the bond, which once was allowed to flow naturally, would help them overcome their cultural misunderstandings and insecurities. After going through Terra Prime together, it just doesn't strike me like the misunderstandings of the past would matter as much as the bond and the experience of losing a child together. The latter might break up a couple without a bond, but with one - I think their grief would help them move forward.

For me it's because of the loyalty she demonstrated on so many occasions. (Unfortunately onscreen it was mostly loyalty toward Archer, but we won't go there, because in my universe she was really just being loyal to Trip underneath it all.)

I think she was very loyal to him, as well as Archer and the crew in general. I also think that part of her reticence over pursuing a relationship with Trip was real concern in might not work out and hurt him, as well as her. There were real impediments to an interspecies relationship at that time. Wanting what was best for him, is part of loyalty.

[panyasan]

I agree totally, Honeybee. As for them grieving together: I think one of the reasons I was so furious after *the_abomination* (I can give you a whole list of other reasons) was that nothing what happened in Terra Prime is mentioned, nothing to connect with the grief they felt. It's hard to cope with losing a child and it can put a lot of strain on your relationship. It's also bonds you together: you're both the parents and nobody understand better the pain you feel that the other parent of the child. (Of course you have to acknowlegde this fact). And as was already pointed out: TnT have a special bond, which will IHMO in the end help them in understanding and staying together.

[Brandyjane]

Another reason why I think she'd be a good wife for Trip in particular is that underneath the surface, they're actually quite similar. They're both brilliant workaholics who value friendship, family, and loyalty. One reason why I became convinced that they belonged together very early on in the series was that despite the bickering, they always worked really well together. From "Broken Bow" on, they seemed to ultimately reach the same decisions about what needed to be done, though sometimes there would be misunderstandings at first. There were also a few times ("Fight or Flight" comes to mind) when I was pretty sure Trip actually agreed with T'Pol rather than Archer about some decisions. I know they say opposites attract, and maybe that's true on the surface, but I think for a deep, long-lasting relationship, most couples need to be in agreement on the important things.

[panyasan]

Another reason why I think she'd be a good wife for Trip in particular is that underneath the surface, they're actually quite similar. They're both brilliant workaholics who value friendship, family, and loyalty. One reason why I became convinced that they belonged together very early on in the series was that despite the bickering, they always worked really well together. From "Broken Bow" on, they seemed to ultimately reach the same decisions about what needed to be done, though sometimes there would be misunderstandings at first. There were also a few times ("Fight or Flight" comes to mind) when I was pretty sure Trip actually agreed with T'Pol rather than Archer about some decisions. I know they say opposites attract, and maybe that's true on the surface, but I think for a deep, long-lasting relationship, most couples need to be in agreement on the important things.

Great point! The most funny illustration of this fact was at the end of A night in sickbay. They shared this long look, more or less saying "finally Archer is acting like he should be as a captain. Meanwhile Archer was doing cutting trees and dancing around. BTW, I just thought of the fact that T'Pol with her Vulcan upbringing would be great in householding. I am so jalours.

[honeybee]

Excellent points, both BrandyJane and Panyasan. I'm particularly keen on the idea that their surfaces may be opposite, but their core values - hard-work, loyalty, family (even the surrogate family of the crew). . .bind them together.

[Brandyjane]

I think that even without the bond, they would be bound. I'm going to channel Asso here and say that it was destiny.

Back to what kind of wife she'd be...I think T'Pol would be what my husband refers to as a "cool" wife. The cool wives don't care if their husbands go out with the guys sometimes, and they want their men to have outside interests. The non-cool wives get upset if their husbands don't spend every possible minute with them. Because of the bond, T'Pol wouldn't need to worry if Trip went out for a beer with Malcolm or Jon. Even without the bond, I think her Vulcan logic would tell her that a man needs some guy time.

[Silverbullet]

What irritated me was how the bond was treated. In terra Prime trip says "I am sick of this bond" T'Pol says "I don't enjoy it either."

Problem is they are stuck with it so they may as well learn to use it.

The fact that the bond was so powerful that it vcould link two minds over an incredible distance and then in the Abomination apparently neither of them felt it.

I am with the idea that Elizabeths death and the two of them taking her to Vulcan to be interred with T'Pol's mother would draw them tightly together. Even just interring Elizabeth on Earth in Trip's famiily plot would do the same. T'Pol could meet Trip's family that way. (story idea?)

I belive that T'Pol would be an excellent wife. In the series she was confused but once she became close to Trip and ended the confusion i believe her love for him would make her an ideal wife for him. they do make a "Hell of a good Team"

SB

[justTripn]

How do we know that T'Pol would be a good wife? Well, they were married and stayed married in E2, the older T'Pol very clearly loved Trip, and Lorian states that his parents had a loving if somewhat contentious marriage (this may have been a deleted scene, but still).

[honeybee]

*Self Promotion Break*


Although the idea of them going to Vulcan to bury Elizabeth in a Vulcan catacomb comes from the profic book The Good that Men Do (and used to great effect) , I borrowed the idea for Ember, Spark, Flame. . .the whole story is about them helping each other work through their grief with the bond, rather than rejecting it. Although, I do think since the bond formed by accident, both of them would take awhile to come to terms with its existence.

As for Elizabeth being buried on Earth, I think that's going to be covered in Aquarius's Body + Katra, and I've seen it handled in a few other great fics, including Alelou's series.

How do we know that T'Pol would be a good wife? Well, they were married and stayed married in E2, the older T'Pol very clearly loved Trip, and Lorian states that his parents had a loving if somewhat contentious marriage (this may have been a deleted scene, but still).

Yes. They were happy in the E2 timeline, although I think their relationship would appear contentious - especially to a young child who didn't understand a good argument as a kind of foreplay.

[WarpGirl]

Are you kidding me right now?

You weren't here during the 70s. In the 80s you were probably too young to be aware of much outside your own world view. But I have to tell you, with all due respect, that the women who had to fight tooth and nail to break through the glass ceiling would have a thing or two to say to you. You might feel differently if you had to burn YOUR bra in order to get The Man's attention because you wanted comparative wages and career opportunities to men, if you'd been told it's YOUR job to stay home and watch the kids and have dinner on the table because you don't have a penis, or be told that you shouldn't aspire to being anything other than a nurse, a secretary, or a stewardess for the same reason...forget being a doctor or a lawyer or a construction worker or anything else that wasn't traditionally female.

I think the feminists of the 60s and 70s and 80s would strongly disagree that the gender roles you've labeled as "bogus" changed and adapted all by themselves. You would do well to remember that you don't have to fight for these things now because THEY did back then.

Well sorry I haven't checked this in a while. First yes I realize that women have been mistreated by men over the course of history. But lets face it humanity as a whole has commited atrocities against itself, for many reasons. And you're right men as a whole can be everything you just said.

But I think the whole "oppressed 50's houswife" stereotype is an insult to women like my grandmother, who was born and raised in poverty... She could have gotten into college, but she didn't want it! She joined the Air Force and could have gotten very far in it, but she CHOSE to marry my grandfather and raise 5 children at, home. But she also was EXTREMELY active in the local Republican Party, she worked with a lot of men, demanded and got the respect she deserved from them, and raised 5 extremely successful, kids with more sucessful grandchildren. Now feminists of the 60's 70's and 80's may think that doesn't mean much because she didn't burn her bra, demand a college degree, an executive office, and break any glass ceilings. But I will tell you right now SHE and women like her, are the ones to whom I owe all the rights I have. She taught my mother what they were, and she taught me. She also taught me that I was responsible for making the sacrifices that come with those rights. Not anywone else, not women who decided that demonizing men, and families were the way to get their rights, or the men and women who wrote the laws. The only one responsible for what I get out of this world is myself. That is what I learned from a true feminist.

As to what kind of wife would T'Pol be... One who does everything in her power (imperfect though she may be) to make her husband and children happy, healthy, and successful. What more can anyone do male or female?

[honeybee]

So, Warpgirl, are you saying that you're offended by the idea of the 50s stereotype? Again, I thought you said gender stereotypes didn't exist. And you told me that I was wrong for saying that T'Pol shouldn't be portrayed as a stereotype because traditional gender roles didn't exist. The reason I cautioned against anyone portraying a 1950s stereotype was precisely because it didn't exist and is inherently offensive to many people. Again, I'd just like you to clarify the contradictions because I'm confused as to what you actually think.

And while it is true that there's more than enough suffering to go around in human history, your grandmother could serve in the air force because a generation or two before her - suffragists/women's rights advocates were willing to fight and die to give her the opportunity to choose. My great grandmother was arrested three times, and she was friends with several of the suffragists who were force fed during their hunger strikes because they wanted the right to vote. She was a Polish immigrant who was able to go to college and graduate in 1910 because her parents came to this country, where women were starting to be educated. I don't think anyone here is disrespecting anyone's choice, just the idea of outmoded and rigid rules that never really applied. Also, it's nice to speak up for those who fought, risked their lives and in some cases died so that women do have a choice.

[Alelou]

Not anywone else, not women who decided that demonizing men, and families were the way to get their rights, or the men and women who wrote the laws.

Well, folks, let's all thank WarpGirl's Grandmother. If it weren't for her, we'd have nothing. God knows all those feminists who fought and sacrificed for equal rights were just noisy man-hating, family-destroying she-monsters.

[WarpGirl]

You're missing the point. The point is whether you're a man or a woman, if you decide you want something out of the world it's your responsibility to get it. The whole "men are just stupid oppressors, and women were just helpless victims is disgusting."

[honeybee]

The whole "men are just stupid oppressors, and women were just helpless victims is disgusting."

Honey, my great-grandmother was arrested - and her husband, my great-grandfather was cheering her on. He went and took care of the kids while she was in jail fighting for a right that he believed she should have. She was no victim, and she was never, ever helpless - despite the fact that she lived in a time that marriage laws made her her husband's property. They fought to end that together. Nobody has said a word against men, and if the men in state legislatures and later in Congress hadn't listened to the women, we probably still wouldn't have had the right to vote. William Godwin, Aaron Burr (who was nuts but did believe in equal rights for women), William Lloyd Garrison and Frederick Douglass were just some of the many, many pre-twentieth century men who fought and fought hard for equal rights for women.

What is disgusting is the notion that good men didn't fight along side women to do what is right. Another thing that's disgusting is the idea that all women were helpless. . .they weren't. But the belief that women wanted equality out of helplessness - that's disgusting. There was a long hard fought road to give women an equal voice, and the people (men and women) who fought for it deserve respect. They certainly don't deserve to be belittled or spit upon by those ignorant of the nature of their actions. Those who think the women's movement was about helpless whining females and man-haters are utter fools.

Respecting the people who fought for equal rights in no way implies women are weak or men were disgusting. In fact, the idea of that is so absurd as to be utterly laughable, except that the misogynists in this world have convinced a lot of stupid people that its true.

[justTripn]

Ha, ha . . . yes, Aaron Burr. He killed my favorite founding father in a duel and plotted to get the West to rise up and separate from the United States but he really did believe in women's rights.

John Adams and his wife Abigail are another example of an unusually equal marriage for that era. She was his trusted advisor and theirs was a great love story.

Also,

OFFICIAL WARNING: let's continue this discussion without attack words like "disgusting", WarpGirl. Please discuss the issue at hand without making derogatory remarks about people.