SPOILER!!!:
Well, not really a "spoiler" just a nasty opinion that might tick some people off, but here goes: I think maybe the only way they can handle it is if the woman in the relationship is some frigid mother figure.
I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
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CoffeeCat
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
I dunno, B&B, they accomplished it with Janeway/Chakotay & Janeway/Tuvok...
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Asso
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four
And here is the beginning of the whole story.
But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four
And here is the beginning of the whole story.
But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.
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HopefulRomantic
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
JadziaKathryn wrote:I have to agree with Elessar on this one, because after ANiS we have this niggling doubt in the back of our mind that maybe Archer is carrying a torch for T'Pol. Or, worse if you ask me, is just lusting after her.
That "we" might be the whole rest of the universe for all I know, but it doesn't include me, hon.
The main problem I had with Twilight is that T'Pol acted wildly unVulcan in leaving the ship to be Archer's nanny. It's a stretch, but I can overlook that we needed Super!Archer to save Earth. *wince* But out of nowhere she decided her skills are best used as... a caretaker? Riiight. If she were human she might feel guilty, but she's not, and it struck me as yet another example of character assassination for the sake of a plot with squicky UST.
Okay, get out the rotten veggies.
Here I go.Another way of looking at Twilight is, T'Pol might have felt responsible (rather than guilty), and she was repaying a debt. She might have viewed the series of actions she took as commander of Enterprise that (in one possible interpretation) led to the destruction of Earth, and come to the logical conclusion that Tucker would make a more effective commander, and her skills could be better utilized planetside on Ceti Alpha V. And I don't just mean the patience and emotional equilibrium needed to be a caregiver (not "nanny" or "maid") for a patient with a memory disorder; T'Pol could do research, she could assist the survivors in a variety of ways, I'm sure she could do tons of stuff, as well as taking care of Archer.
Let's say this was a lovely perfect world and there were never any shipper wars or mud-slinging or bashing, and Archer and T'Pol were trusted friends on the order of Kirk and Spock, and along came Season 3, and hints of T/T, and this awful Xindi war was brewing. And then came Twilight. (This is the frame of mind I had when I first saw the episode.) And in this "what-if" future, Trip (without his Cap'n and T'Pol) was cold and hard and angry, the way we'd seen him in The Xindi. And T'Pol was the antithesis of what she had been--long hair, soft lines, subdued manner. And lo, she secretly developed feelings for Archer, which he obviously didn't know about, and which she didn't even want to admit to Phlox. Whoa! But hey, that's what these "what-if" episodes are for, to explore radically different outcomes than what we get in the normal timeline. I thought it was tragic and poignant and well done. I know the episode is highly regarded...just not among most folks here.
So I'm in the minority again. We all have our unique perspective about these episodes, and these characters. That's what makes the IDIC go round. 
blacknblue wrote:It all goes along with the writers/producers determination to present Archer as an overgrown baby.
Somehow I don't think this was really what TPTB were aiming for. Granted, they took very poor care of their lead character, but still...
Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
I also recently watched both ANiS and Twilight again, I am also one of those peeps that enjoyed the Episodes. I don't know the real idea's behind the shows but imo in ANiS, it seemed to me that the writers were just trying to show Archer as being a normal human guy. Just as they did with Reed. T'Pol is gorgeous, they are going to think about her like that at some point. Didn't the writers want a more realistic crew this time, instead of the highly morally coded peeps of the earlier treks?
What I love most about this episode and shuttle-pod one is that T'Pol's obviously privy to what's going on and takes the first opportunities to nip the attractions in the bud before the guys can even think about going any further with it, making it clear that she is so very uninterested.
I really like the fact that Archer and Reed seemed to see T'Pol's Vulcanness first, lusted after her femininity second and then respected her for her intelligence and expertise lastly, where as Trip saw T'Pol's Vulcanness first, respected her intelligence and expertise second and, only after T'Pol was making it blatantly obvious that she was attracted to him, allowed himself to feel and react on his attraction to her. He is shown to be very respectful of her culture in that area. You also never get the idea that Trip lusted after T'Pol in the way that Reed and Archer did, or the way T'Pol lusted after Trip.
I wonder why the writers chose to do that? I really think they planned on T/T having a thing from day one.
Also in both Reed and Archer's case, the attraction is only mentioned once by each character, for me there is nothing in any other episode that suggests that they are attracted to T'Pol, it seems to me after their knock backs, Archers more harshly than Reeds (lol i love that scene), both men quickly forget about the incidents.
Even in Twilight Archer seems a little confused and taken aback about the 'how far their relationship progressed' comment, i think that scene was just to put a smile on the A/T'P fans faces, let them take what they want out of the scene, give them fuel for fan fic's and keep them watching while the show was for perusing the T/T thing.
As for Twilight, Ignoring the fact that I believe it was a bit of a silly story because I'm sure even Archer was the kind of man that wouldn't have wanted to be a burden on anyone and would have strenuously made sure T'Pol wasn't wasting her brilliance on looking after him, I also really like this episode.
I agree that T'Pol decided to look after Archer because she feels responsible, not for Archers accident, but for the fate of earth. I think she was seriously trying to make amends in the only way she knew how. And when Phlox questions her about possible feelings T'Pol is completely unfazed by the accusation, water off a ducks back.
To me, the scene is made to seem like she's thinking 'believe what you want, it really doesn't matter to me'. It seems to me that T'Pol had heard it all before, from maybe Soval, maybe Trip, and that although it was untrue she found it made her life a little easier for people to believe that she maybe infatuated with the Captain instead of having them know that she is in-fact punishing herself.
Friends and colleagues, especially Trip would be much less inclined to try and convince her out of this life of repent if they thought there was something going on with her and Archer. Otherwise I could see someone having a nice chat with Archer about the fact that maybe he needs to convince T'Pol to get on with her life and stop beating herself up all the time.
In that way, I felt as though the episode was actually backing up the T/T relationship, because even in a universe where T'Pol and Archer actually do end up together they are only, at best, very close friends.
Off the subject: Just out of curiosity? The episode Hatchery? Did anyone else think that this was the only episode Archer made any sense and Trip and T'Pol didn't? (Although I loved the Mutiny!)
What I love most about this episode and shuttle-pod one is that T'Pol's obviously privy to what's going on and takes the first opportunities to nip the attractions in the bud before the guys can even think about going any further with it, making it clear that she is so very uninterested.
I really like the fact that Archer and Reed seemed to see T'Pol's Vulcanness first, lusted after her femininity second and then respected her for her intelligence and expertise lastly, where as Trip saw T'Pol's Vulcanness first, respected her intelligence and expertise second and, only after T'Pol was making it blatantly obvious that she was attracted to him, allowed himself to feel and react on his attraction to her. He is shown to be very respectful of her culture in that area. You also never get the idea that Trip lusted after T'Pol in the way that Reed and Archer did, or the way T'Pol lusted after Trip.
I wonder why the writers chose to do that? I really think they planned on T/T having a thing from day one.
Also in both Reed and Archer's case, the attraction is only mentioned once by each character, for me there is nothing in any other episode that suggests that they are attracted to T'Pol, it seems to me after their knock backs, Archers more harshly than Reeds (lol i love that scene), both men quickly forget about the incidents.
Even in Twilight Archer seems a little confused and taken aback about the 'how far their relationship progressed' comment, i think that scene was just to put a smile on the A/T'P fans faces, let them take what they want out of the scene, give them fuel for fan fic's and keep them watching while the show was for perusing the T/T thing.
As for Twilight, Ignoring the fact that I believe it was a bit of a silly story because I'm sure even Archer was the kind of man that wouldn't have wanted to be a burden on anyone and would have strenuously made sure T'Pol wasn't wasting her brilliance on looking after him, I also really like this episode.
I agree that T'Pol decided to look after Archer because she feels responsible, not for Archers accident, but for the fate of earth. I think she was seriously trying to make amends in the only way she knew how. And when Phlox questions her about possible feelings T'Pol is completely unfazed by the accusation, water off a ducks back.
To me, the scene is made to seem like she's thinking 'believe what you want, it really doesn't matter to me'. It seems to me that T'Pol had heard it all before, from maybe Soval, maybe Trip, and that although it was untrue she found it made her life a little easier for people to believe that she maybe infatuated with the Captain instead of having them know that she is in-fact punishing herself.
Friends and colleagues, especially Trip would be much less inclined to try and convince her out of this life of repent if they thought there was something going on with her and Archer. Otherwise I could see someone having a nice chat with Archer about the fact that maybe he needs to convince T'Pol to get on with her life and stop beating herself up all the time.
In that way, I felt as though the episode was actually backing up the T/T relationship, because even in a universe where T'Pol and Archer actually do end up together they are only, at best, very close friends.
Off the subject: Just out of curiosity? The episode Hatchery? Did anyone else think that this was the only episode Archer made any sense and Trip and T'Pol didn't? (Although I loved the Mutiny!)
Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
I've never understood how Twilight could be perceived as a romantic story. Or how Phlox could ask T'Pol about her relationship with Archer. Phlox of all people should understand the situation Archer and T'Pol were in. The man can't make new memories. There is no way their relationship could evolve. Every day he wakes up, he's thinks he's the captain of Enterprise. He's upset. He's angry and confused. Even if she can get him calmed down, I doubt that he's ready for a quick roll in the hay. He'd see T'Pol as his first officer and therefore off limits. As for T'Pol, even if she had the hots for him -- and she never gave any indication of those feelings -- I think she is far too honorable to take advantage of a sick man.
I never understood the writers need to consistently make Phlox the sexual instigator. Maybe with all those wives and all those husbands, Denobulans think of nothing but sex.
As for ANIS, well... I watched it first run. Um... Well.... Cringe worthy comes to mind. It made me so uncomfortable, I've never watched it again. The sexual innuendo was bad enough, but the chainsaw and braids at the end put it WAY over the top.
I never understood the writers need to consistently make Phlox the sexual instigator. Maybe with all those wives and all those husbands, Denobulans think of nothing but sex.
As for ANIS, well... I watched it first run. Um... Well.... Cringe worthy comes to mind. It made me so uncomfortable, I've never watched it again. The sexual innuendo was bad enough, but the chainsaw and braids at the end put it WAY over the top.
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CoffeeCat
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
michelle wrote:Off the subject: Just out of curiosity? The episode Hatchery? Did anyone else think that this was the only episode Archer made any sense and Trip and T'Pol didn't? (Although I loved the Mutiny!)
Hatchery was my favorite episode, EVER
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
Archer should've been relieved of duty in Hatchery. Phlox and Trip should've grown some balls and went through with it instead of waiting around to see what happened or staging a mutiny. I also didn't much care for the portrayal of the MACOs as nothing but a bunch of mindless automatons who would follow the captain or anyone else unquestioningly.
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Asso
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
Dinah wrote:I've never understood how Twilight could be perceived as a romantic story. Or how Phlox could ask T'Pol about her relationship with Archer. Phlox of all people should understand the situation Archer and T'Pol were in. The man can't make new memories. There is no way their relationship could evolve. Every day he wakes up, he's thinks he's the captain of Enterprise. He's upset. He's angry and confused. Even if she can get him calmed down, I doubt that he's ready for a quick roll in the hay. He'd see T'Pol as his first officer and therefore off limits. As for T'Pol, even if she had the hots for him -- and she never gave any indication of those feelings -- I think she is far too honorable to take advantage of a sick man.
I never understood the writers need to consistently make Phlox the sexual instigator. Maybe with all those wives and all those husbands, Denobulans think of nothing but sex.
As for ANIS, well... I watched it first run. Um... Well.... Cringe worthy comes to mind. It made me so uncomfortable, I've never watched it again. The sexual innuendo was bad enough, but the chainsaw and braids at the end put it WAY over the top.
Nothing to add.
It's perfect!
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four
And here is the beginning of the whole story.
But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four
And here is the beginning of the whole story.
But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.
Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
I agree with with Dinah with everything she said about A Night In Sickbay ick!
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JadziaKathryn
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
All things considered, the chainsaw and braids were the second-best part. That's not saying much. (The best part was Phlox's tongue. I liked that and his pufferface because he seemed truly alien.)
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Asso
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
Precisely!
Well yes. I continue to write. And on Fanfiction.Net, for those who want, it is possible to cast a glance at my latest efforts. We arrived to
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four
And here is the beginning of the whole story.
But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.
The Ears of the Elves, chapter Forty-four
And here is the beginning of the whole story.
But, I must say, you could also find something else on Fanfiction.net written by me. If you want.
-
CoffeeCat
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
The best part was when Hoshi caught the bat.
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
I liked Hoshi catching the bat. And Archer apologized to Trip & T'Pol for being a stubborn and childish.
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Kevin Thomas Riley
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Re: I Just Rewatched ____ and Noticed ____
I hate both ANiS and Twilight with every fiber of my being. For those that want to know exactly why, I direct you to my respective reviews of those horrid episodes: 
A Night in Sickbay
Twilight
A Night in Sickbay
Twilight
She's got an awfully nice bum!
-Malcolm Reed on T'Pol, in Shuttlepod One
-Malcolm Reed on T'Pol, in Shuttlepod One
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