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Something curious I've noticed in this discussion is Trip's choice in season 3. I mean, he chooses T'Pol as a friend (and possibly confidant.) If Archer is detached, T'Pol is apparently even more detached. So I'm wondering what happens with Trip to make those choices (very not emotional people) for friends.

I think it's actually somewhat different, Escriba.

I think Trip idolizes Archer early on, though that fades. I do think Trip does maintain respect for the things Archer accomplishes, but that's different.

With T'Pol, she serves as a kind of sounding board. I believe that during their neural pressure sessions, he talked a lot and she listened to him. I'm also of the mind that they talked a great deal offscreen, and this his how the attraction turned to a real relationship. She supported him, logically speaking, through the grief over his sister's death. I don't believe that Trip would have taken all the mixed signals we saw later if there wasn't a solid foundation of friendship and her really being there for him when it counted, which I believe she was. She just wasn't able to deal with the consequences of their closeness, which was them falling in love and by then it was too late for him.

On the other hand, Trip is the one that craves the relationship in both cases. Archer doesn't seem to care because he's focused on other things, and T'Pol is scared and dealing with emotions she'd not supposed to be feeling.

OK First of all I agree with you honeybee that Archer didn't use the brilliant people he had enough. You're so right.

Escriba you might not believe this explanation but it's the only one I've got... For people highly attuned to the emotions of others it's not really necessary for other people to be emotionally open for them to pick up on their emotions. I should know I've got experience. My father is the most emotionally closed off human being, but I always know what he's feeling, and we don't even really know each other. Another thing for people with strong empathy, is that we're really good at faking emotions, being "happy" when we're reall not, and so on. So basically I've always thought that since Trip reads T'Pol so well that he knows he can't fake it with her. Whether she chooses to call him on it or not he knows he can't convince her of anything. Because she can't fool him either. Like I said it's hard to believe it if you're not slightly empathic yourself. I've always thought Trip was slightly empathic.

Trip always impressed me as someone who needs to be needed. He reaches out to others naturally. At the same time, he keeps his feelings and his needs pretty much to himself. Trip gets close to the three people who seem to need a friend the most: Archer, T'Pol and Reed. He's there when they need him, but he doesn't ask for anything in return. The only time he really pushes is when he's trying to bring someone gently out of their shell, i.e. Malcolm and to some extent T'Pol.

This is exactly the kind of friend Archer would want and need. Someone who can keep his spirits up. Someone he can confide in, if he feels like it, and at the same time will be loyal, trustworthy and discreet. Someone who will adapt his schedule to Archer's -- be ready when Archer wants to party, explore, etc. Trip fills the bill on all counts.

I think Archer values Trip's friendship. I also think he wants to be a good friend to Trip. I'm just not sure he really knows how. If they get together, the watch water polo, not something that would appeal to Trip. I think he wants to protect Trip -- keep him away from danger, if possible. Jon is more geared toward trying to take care of Trip physically than emotionally. If Trip's hurt or sick, Archer is generally there to help. When Trip is hurt emotionally, though, he's pretty much on his own.

In Archer's defense, however, a certain amount of this is due to the fact that Trip keeps things pretty much to himself. He doesn't let on just how hurt he is. He doesn't want to bother others with his problems. His solution is to put on a good-ole-boy face and joke around -- and ultimately suffer in silence.

I think you are spot on, Dinah. Trip is willing to be friends with the three most emotionally distant people on the ship, but when Malcolm wants to reach out to him after Elizabeth dies - he retracts. Instead, he chooses to talk to T'Pol, who won't press him about his feelings.

Well said, Dinah. You seem to me to have already read, someway. the following of the story you so kindly edited for me.

It certainly is a trait us slightly empathic people share, the need to be needed is pretty strong there. Honestly though I can't figure out if Archer tries to protect Trip because he's Trip, or because he needs Trip. I haven't decided yet.

I must be wierd. I get a different reading. I believe Archer is ready to use Trip if he has need for his skills or if he wants Trip to hold his hand. But he doesn't look at Trip as a "Friend" in the sense of the word. Trip first of all is a subordinate to Archer. Archer has said that he cannot get close or have a relationship with one of the female crew (T-Pol) because she is his subordinate. well same goes for Trip, he is a subordinate. Archer sees it as "Lonely at the top" Believe he actually likes it that way. Archer always struck me as lacking a bit in his humanity even though he prosted it was his humanity that made him do things or kept him from doing things. Archer as Commander was lousy. He walked into things he could have avoided if he had thought it out. Really prime example was with the Orion women. Any Captain with a lick of seense would not have trusted the Orion at all. Yet he accepts three Orion slave women and brings them on board and keeps them there even though he knows tthey are a disruptive force on board. The peril he put the crew and the ship into was never emphasized. The Orions would not have been satisfied with just Archer when they had a completely helpless Enterprise and crew for the taking. The entire crew would have ended up as slaves and the enterprise in the Orion syndicate hands.

Still do not se or beieve that Trip would Hero worship Archer. ARcher never did anything to deserve loyalty out of trip or the crew.

(this is why I never liked the Archer character. too damned much of him in the seeries and he could do everythng and anything and was perfect. the savior of Earth, blah, blah.)

It's not that I disagree with you dear because God knows I think as an officer Archer is inept. But as a friend I tend to think he's more then a little screwed up. It's possible that losing his father means he has some abandonment issues, and on the one hand longs for people to stay in his life, yet he might be terrified of feeling pain again and then avoids the very emotional intimacy he craves. Either way I think his need to be on top is very destructive.

Unfortunately we don't know much about Archer as a boy. He appears to have been an only child. He never talks about his mother, so you wonder how important she was in his life. Everything seems to have revolved around his dad. But dad was not only trying to develop a new warp engine, he was also battling the Vulcans. How much time would he have had for little Jonny? His dad obviously talked about the problems with the Vulcans when he was at home. I doubt that Jon would have been so aware of them if he hadn't. I wonder if Archer disliked the Vulcans because they kept his dad from seeing his engine fly or if, deep down, he resented the fact that the problems with the Vulcans forced his dad to spend more time away from him. With daddy so busy, he probably would have spoiled Jon when he did have any time to spend with him. And mom -- she may have doted on her only son to compensate for an absentee husband.

But then Jon's father died. And who is next in line as a father figure: Emory Erickson, a completely self-absorbed S.O.B. You don't learn to care for others or to or recognize the needs other people may have if you two preoccupied and seemingly obsessed men are your role models.

I have a feeling Jon was treated like a little prince when he was around other people. But most of the time he was probably just a lonely little boy who learned at an early age that the only person he could count on was himself. It also makes sense that he would have learned to never open himself too freely to other people because if you love them too much, they leave you.

Well in Archer's death knell, AKA Rogue Planet, he says his mother would read him poetry, to help him sleep. That told me that she was a sensitive woman devoted to her son. About his father, I've always had the feeling that maybe Archer as a boy misuderstood professional frustration for true hatred and bigotry. But I might be wrong, is there anything that specifically stated Henry Archer hated Vulcans?

I do believe that Archer was probably a privliged child, and that he was probably considered an heir to greatness. He's definitely given preferential treatment in Starfleet that no other Captain has had in the franchise. I have to admit, that it soured me on him even more.

Guy with that many hangup had no business being incommand unless he was very good at hiding his feelings. I get the idea though that he wwas vocal about his dislike of vulcans and his belief of what he thought they did to his father. A remote father can be compensated by a loving mother. If Archer's mother did read him poetry and coddled him while his father as unavailable Archer could have turned out a little light on his feet. He also could have turned out trying to find his father by building a myth in his mind of the injustice of the vulcans. In any case Archer sounds like a Basket case. Certainly what he did in the series made no sense: removing Trip as FO and putting T-Pol in his place. Going on suicide missions; leaving T-Pol in place after she almost got Enterprise destroyed by freezing durng the attack in Azati Prime; The Orion women, showed that he was a very flawed man and a dangerously inept commander.

You do have a point that the pain a remote father can be eased somewhat by a devoted mother. But it leaves its mark believe me. Anyhow I don't buy that Henery Archer was remote. He sounded like a very good father whether he hated Vulcans or not. Also if I remember correctly his illness was a very prolonged one, typically only sudden deaths create long term abandonment issues in children. Although not always every child is different. However I doubt Archer would have had such strong issues, because continuity aside, he was not a very young child at his father's death. Personally, I think he's closed off because he wants to be. His whole a ship is a Captain's mistress attitude is something he wants. Not healthy in my opinion but it's not atypical for authority figures.