Archer - Dweeb or Hero?

[WarpGirl]

Yes war is messy business but remember the Galdiators they were ENTERTAINMENT! Sorry Asso it seems your countrymen and my ancestors seem to be under attack right now. But war doesn't justify attacking innocent civilians which is what the people Archer stole from were. He went in there armed, he knew he was stranding them in a hostile enviornment, and taking something vital to their survival. War is immoral I don't condone it in anyway but Archer's actions weren't immoral they were AMORAL. Nothing can justify them, not even Earth's immenent destruction.

[Asso]

WarpGirl, somehow we are saying the same thing.
Merely, I'm tempted to go beyond, because I'm afraid, WarPGirl, EXTREMELY AFRAID: I TREMBLE WHEN PEOPLE SAY THAT WAR TIME IS WAR TIME.

[WarpGirl]

Well for once we agree!

[Alelou]

War is awful. War is brutal. War should be avoided if possible. It should not be entered into lightly, and we should always be cautious of those who are willing to chew up our soldiers to gain their own agendas, whether it be cheaper oil or real estate or poltiical approval or the spread of democracy or the illusion of more safety, or whatever. But the Xindi attacked Earth. That was a terrible, unprovoked act of war, with every reason to think worse was to come. Archer did what he felt he had to do. I'm not sure I would have made the same decisions he did, or that he absolutely didn't have other options, but I'm not going to judge his actions. He has to do that himself. Maybe other battle veterans can judge him. Personally I feel he sacrificed his own sense of himself to protect his planet, and that wasn't a small sacrifice.

I sure as hell don't embrace Machiavelli. But I also don't think the world is a happy place full of reasonable people who never want to kill you and yours and impose their own beliefs and values on you. There are certainly things that no doubt should be done to make it more that way in the future, but in the meantime, you can't afford to just lie down and hope for the dawn of peace and love. Or maybe you can, but in that case chances are good that there are other people out there fighting your battles for you.

You live in Italy after WWII, Asso. Well, I was living just outside New York City on 9/11. There were kids in my son's elementary school whose parents didn't come home from work that night. I will never take peace for granted.

If you ask me, the third season of Enterprise is how Star Trek's writers digested that trauma. Not because they wanted to make Archer nasty and tell mean stories, but because they were grappling with that sea-change in our sense of the world.

[WarpGirl]

I grew up on Long Island Alelou, my Uncle was Chief of Deer Park fire department, my mother knew most of the fireman and policemen that died resucing survivors. Please believe me when I say that I understand where you are coming from. But being attacked first doesn't mean a society has the right to use those same tactics dealing with the enemy. By stealing that Warp Coil Archer launched an unprovoked attack. He's no better than the Xindi the only difference is scale. Whatever B-B's intentions with the Xindi arc they wrote a Captain who was contrary to all of Star Trek's values.

[Asso]

Alelou, I'm not arguing about self-defense.
I'm not arguing about war's necessities.
I'm arguing about Archer's behaviour, and his behaviour has been terrible. It's impossible to take something right, from what he did.
I feel I have to be really honest.
If someone doesn't judge his behaviour iniquitous, and tries to justify it in some way, this someone - for me - runs the risk to think that everything can be justified, more or less.
And the fact, Alelou, is that in the show frankly I didn't see some "moral claims" about what Archer did.
It was like if Authors wanted tell us: Archer is right, there is Earth to salvage, so everything can be done.
Please, take away "Earth" and put in whatever else you want, and the play is done.

[Alelou]

I guess my argument is that he knows he's being no better than them -- but he sees no other clear option that saves Earth, so he does it anyway. I think that happens all the time in war, has happened all the time in war, and will happen all the time in war, God help us. And it will haunt him the rest of his life, and rightly so -- I'm not sure he shouldn't be disciplined or punished for it and probably he isn't either -- but at least his planet is still there. And I think the writers were willing to present this as a difficult moral dilemma and leave it there essentially unresolved, and I'm okay with that and can still like Archer. You can't. That's okay. We will never agree on this, so I'll hang it up.

[WarpGirl]

My problem is that the whole thing goes against the point of Star Trek. Enterprise did this in many ways but Archer's whole character is the most glaring example. Not just with the Xindi but his whole attitude in general. I can deal with the Xindi but I can't deal with the fact that Archer is lauded as a hero and founder of the federation when the man is so contrary to the priciples created by Rodenberry.

[Asso]

I too will hang up, in regard to this peculiar issue. I think it's better.
Only one last little thought.
God help us, yes. But... Help yourself, and heaven helps you.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

What I appreciated in this storyline was the acknowledgment that sometimes there are no nice options, only bad ones. Had this been TNG instead of ENT you can bet yer hinie that some deus ex machina solution (like the sudden appearance of some baddies who we'd not mind if they had their warp coil stolen from) would present itself to Picard so he wouldn't have to make a tough decision.

Besides, we can always imagine that one of the first things Archer told Degra went they met was that there's this stranded ship out there and could you please send them a new warp coil ASAP.

[WarpGirl]

Forget TNG that would have happened on TOS. Which is my point. The whole point of ST is that humainity has risen above such tactics even when they are used against them by others. I wouldn't have minded if they had shown Archer having to face the consequences of his actions. Heck I would have settled for someone seriously saying "No I won't go along with this plan of action!" What I wanted was some aknowledgement that this was not supposed to be the standards humanity strives for. That such things were unacceptable and bringing out that humanity is capable of becoming more and better inspite of this. Archer had no such developement.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

And my point was that the reason humanity was able to "rise above such tactics" was that the writers conveniently set up their stories in such a way that the characters never had to face such hard decisions because there would always be a way for them to "cheat" using some contrived plot device.

But I agree that we should've seen the kind of remorse and character development for Archer that you mention. Home wasn't enough.

[WarpGirl]

And my point was that the reason humanity was able to "rise above such tactics" was that the writers conveniently set up their stories in such a way that the characters never had to face such hard decisions because there would always be a way for them to "cheat" using some contrived plot device. But I agree that we should've seen the kind of remorse and character development for Archer that you mention. Home wasn't enough.

The writers wrote that way to make their point, with the concept they had. Is it realistic? No. But I don't like the fact that Enterprise screwed with that concept. It's what made me truly fall in love with ST and not just watch it because my parents did.

[evcake]

He didn't want to do it. He didn't think to was right, or his right to do it. He didn't leave them to die, and he did what little he could to ameliorate the condition he left them in.
I don't recall James T. being in an analogous position. Archer wasn't as lucky as Kirk, but then who could be? I don't think we feel as lucky as we did in the 60's either, come to think of it.

Trek reflects it's time...in it's bizarre entertainment-industry way.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

And my point was that the reason humanity was able to "rise above such tactics" was that the writers conveniently set up their stories in such a way that the characters never had to face such hard decisions because there would always be a way for them to "cheat" using some contrived plot device. But I agree that we should've seen the kind of remorse and character development for Archer that you mention. Home wasn't enough.

The writers wrote that way to make their point, with the concept they had. Is it realistic? No. But I don't like the fact that Enterprise screwed with that concept. It's what made me truly fall in love with ST and not just watch it because my parents did.

Well, I for one liked that ENT didn't take the easy, non-realistic, way out. So we'll just have to disagree then.