Starfleet: Military Or Not?

[WarpGirl]

Look I just posted what canon siad from a site where they compile all of the canon information.

In the 22nd century, Starfleet was a civilian organization which adopted many aspects of Earth's earlier military forces, even though its main role was scientific development and exploration.

Do I believe it stayed that way? NOPE. After the Xindi things changed, OBVIOUSLY. All I'm saying is that it wasn't until the Federation was founded that Starfleet OFFICALLY became a true military.

[Escriba]

If you honestly believe that Starfleet wasn't a military organization, then you also must believe that Humans at this time were too dumb to exist. Even small countries or prinicipalities have an army or navy or both. They know that if they want to continue to exist, they have to protect themselves.

Except, oficially, Costa Rica.

And there are some other countries that don't own an army. HERE.

[WarpGirl]

Escriba Honestly you totally ROCK!

[Dinah]

Point taken, Escriba. I may be wrong about this, but if problems arise, I'm going to bet that those countries start looking to others for help.

In its own bizarre way maybe this makes sense of the Vulcans' position toward Humans. Vulcans, a species which values peace, has a military component. They're realists; they know what's out there. Maybe that's why they felt Earth wasn't ready. Maybe that's why they were trying to slow the Humans down. They wanted Humanity to realize that deep space was a lot more dangerous than an interstellar meet and greet.

It might also explain the Vulcans' refusal to help with the Xindi. By this time, they had to know that Humans wouldn't pay any attention to them. If Earth was going to survive, Humans had to do this by themselves. Otherwise, they'd be coming to the Vulcans everytime they poked at stick down the wrong hole -- and resenting the Vulcans a little more each and every time they bailed them out.

If not before, I'd say Starfleet became Earth's interstellar military presence as soon as the Xindi's fired their weapon. They finally learned what the Vulcans had been trying to tell them. Prepare yourself or face annihilation.

If you don't think Starfleet was a military organization, that's fine, too.

[WarpGirl]

I think it was becoming one, but it took time. I agree the Xindi changed the course of Starfleet, when it was formed nobody thought they'd have to become soldiers. In the end that happened. You make some awsome points about the Vulcans Dinah then again, that's what you do best. Like I said I don't deny Starfleet is the military of the Federation. I'm not THAT stupid... (although I have my moments) But until the Xindi I stand by the fact that Starfleet was civilian and NOT apart of Earth's military.

[Silverbullet]

Earth confederation of Countries and world council did have a military.

They also would have a military to protect their planetary system from some potential attack. That just makes good sense. Be Prepared. Once Earth achieved Interstellar space travel it would draw attention. Orion syndicate for instance. If Earth had the capabillity of beating off a hit and run attack they would be left alone.

So, Starfleet would be an outgrowth of that planetary Military presence or if you will defense military force.

Humans weren't that stupid. they had to know that there might and probably was hostile species out in the galaxy. so the Enterprise was a military ship zent out to do intial exploratioon and first contadt.You want to go out and play with the big boys you don't send a dove. You send an Eagle.

It would be in Earth's best interest to send military manned ships with intent to meet peacefully but able to defend itself if the need arose.

Military doesn't mean that Earth sent out Enterprise with hostile intention to conquer or to make alliance for hostile purposes.

Archer had been given some Diplomatic training and was expected to act as a Goodwill
ambassor whenever possible.

So enterprise was sort of the Steel fist in the velvet glove.

IMHO

[Asso]

StarFleet has been instituted just after a worldwide war. That has its meaning, I think.

[WarpGirl]

But Dear, Earth didn't know about the Orians. They didn't even know about the Andorians, they're ONLY intersteller ally's traditional enemy at the time. The only dangerous spieces they were even aware of in Broken Bow were the Klingons, and the Suliban. And they certainly didn't entertain the thought of actually fighting wars with either. Militaries fight wars, that's why they exist. Until the Xindi Humans thought they had literally stopped war. They were tragically nieve which is why the Vulcans tried to hold them back. They had no idea that they would be soldiers. Doesn't Archer say all of this in Home? I read the transcript. He even says many times I was never a soldier. Um if you're not a soldier, how can you be a Military Officer?

No ASSO Zephrem Cochrane invented Earth's first Warp Engine YEARS AFTER the last planetary war. Starfleet wasn't formed until AFTER First Contact. BIG HUGE MONUMENTAL difference. I just watched the movie. Which thanks to Regeneration is now officially CANON. Who knew that piece of garbage would come in handy.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

KTR is going to have to cut and paste his thing again?

Yup! Here we go again...

Starfleet is a military organization and nothing - including statements from the late Great Bird or other show-runners - can convince me otherwise. Simply stating that it isn't military isn't enough. If something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Consequently if something performs military duties and operations (i.e. waging wars and defence) it's a military. And Starfleet does just that, both in the ENT era and later on. That does not preclude it from doing exploration and stuff like that. In fact it was naval vessels that did a lot of the exploration on Earth's oceans (they still do).

To re-use a real life analogy I've often used, when the Bolsheviks seized power in Russia they abolished the police. The very name "police" smacked too much of Czarist times for the reds. But they too needed a police force (much more than Czarist Russia it turned out) doing what police forces normally do (plus a lot of other things, but that's another topic). But they called it a "militia" instead, and to this very day, even after the fall of the USSR, the Russian police is still called "militsiya". It doesn't change the fact that it for all intents and purposes is a police force.

So Starfleet could be called The Girls Scouts for all I care and still be a military if it performed the tasks and duties we've seen it do.

As far as Starfleet's history goes, we can only guess. It might have been a more civilian organization at first, like NASA, but it pretty obvious that that changed over time. My own personal take is that UESPA (the canonical United Earth Space Probe Agency) was the equivalent of NASA and that sometime during the first half of the 22nd century had to develop a military capability, and thus Starfleet was born. As to the cause, perhaps the Earth-Kzin War(s)?

And the MACOs? Well, they're obviously a military ground operations organization. If Starfleet is a navy equivalent, then I'd consider them a part of the army (or marine corps) equivalent.

Look, let's say they don't seem to think they're really military, compared to those MACOs, for example.

But they're still CLEARLY military in every way that counts.

Yup! And you could add B&B and the Hollyweird types to "they" since they for some reason probably think a military is EEEEVIL warmongers and thus has no room in what they think is Trek!

[WarpGirl]

OK I am getting so freaked out that I am actually sticking with Canon when the canon people are objecting. THIS IS WRONG! I should be denouncing canon at the top of my fingertips!!!! Have I entered an AU??? Really I'm scared.

[Aquarius]

It IS very confusing. Just for the record, usually astronauts, USUALLY are military. More often than not Air Force. But there have been civilians on space missions. However when NASA was first formed being Military was a requirement. Which makes it confusing because NASA isn't military. See if we mere Earthlings make ourselves so confused and we barely get past the moon, I can't imagine how confusing it was forming Starfleet. Thank God for the Vulcans if you ask me.

There was a nice Discovery Channel special called "From Earth to the Moon" that Tom Hanks narrated, which chronicled the formation of NASA and space flight. At first they thought they were going to employ civilian acrobats as our astronauts, because it was thought that their skill set would make them perfect to deal with things like pulling g's, microgravity, etc.

However, it was decided to make our astronauts military pilots because of their discipline and the credibility it would lend to the program...which many thought was kind of a joke earlier, because most of those first spacecraft didn't require any actual "piloting," you just sat your butt down on the biggest stick of dynamite you can imagine and went for the ride.

[WarpGirl]

I've only seen parts of that. Actually ST got me hooked on NASA for the first 15 years of my life. I loved space and astronomy. I studied a lot of it finatically. Plus all of those Reading Rainbow episodes. If Geordie says Starfleet is the NASA of the future I DON'T argue.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

OK I am getting so freaked out that I am actually sticking with Canon when the canon people are objecting. THIS IS WRONG! I should be denouncing canon at the top of my fingertips!!!! Have I entered an AU??? Really I'm scared.

Even if I'm one of the "canon people" it doesn't mean that I cannot recognize faults, stupidity, contradictions and implausibilities within the franchise itself.

[Aquarius]

Well, I'm gonna argue with Geordi.

NASA is a federally-controlled civilian organization that employs members of the military in various key positions.

You don't join the military first and then become a member of Starfleet. You enlist (yes, that word has been used many times in reference to lower-level crewmen in ST) or you go to the academy and become an officer--just like in the U.S. military. Also like our current military, Starfleet hires/contracts civilians for certain jobs, who work for Starfleet, but are not IN Starfleet. (Much like how when my ex was contracted by General Motors to do computer work; he was working for GM, but he was not a GM employee.)

There is no NASA academy, and you can't "enlist" in NASA.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

If you want a NASA-type organization in the 22nd century, I suggest UESPA (United Earth Space Probe Agency) would fit that bill.