Archer and Trip

[WarpGirl]

This is what I meant by saying that they didn't write it correctly. I know that Trip and Archer both at times referred to each other as being "best friends" or saying "he is my closest friend." But they never did have best friend converstaions, or any semblence of emotional intimacy. What was stated didn't match what was shown. Which is a repeated them in the writing of the series.

[Silverbullet]

When Trip was involved with AJ and ARcher in that test of a Warp two engen it ws the Engineer in him that led to his involvement. Archer recognized Trip's ability as an Engineer and said that he woud ask for him to be on the Starship. I didn't detect any friendship or male bonding. Later Trip did not disclose anything at all of his relatonship with T-Pol her seduction and her rejection of him the nest day or for that matter anything except that she got married while trip was with her on Vulcan. There Trip acted as if he had only been an observer not that his Heart was torn apart by T-Pol's marriage. Good, close, bonded male friends, Trip would have confided some of that to Archer knowing that Archer would keep it to himself and try to reach out and help Trip over the hurt. None of that was shown in Ent. As I have said Archer dumped Trip quickly in favor of t-Pol not the actionn of a good close friend. If Archer ws a "Friend" he was a very shallow one. He seemed more inclined to use Trip. some of that can be laid to being Captain and in command but some of it was just callous.

[WarpGirl]

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate. Is Archer callous? I think so. But I don't think he knows he's callous. The thing is he's very wrapped up in his own reality. And really aren't we all? It seems to me that he makes a classic mistake in a relationship, he thinks that the people closest to him see things the way he does. I remember that in Daedlus he seems more shocked than anything that Trip was questioning his command decisions. That shock turned to anger. Then in The Anear he's completely clueless. I just think that he is very closed off to things that he doesn't see in his own reality. And when something encroaches on it he tends to react very badly.

[Alelou]

I can't remember any lines about being best friends or closest friends. Seriously, I'd love to know where they are, since apparently I missed them.

[Escriba]

I don't like much to see relationships as completely one-sided, as if the other part doesn't count. Archer is evil and callous and egoist and Trip is something like an angel Apparently Archer does evil things to Trip, T'Pol does evil things to Trip and Trip puts off with everything because... what? he is idiot?

I just don't swallow the "poor, poor Trip, always a victim" argument. Because it makes him look like an idiot.

Yes, I think he bears a lot, because he's loyal and, let's be frank, because he's a little insecure, but there's a part where I think he doesn't suffer that much, because he doesn't care that much. Otherwise we should think that Trip is a complete wimp, a puppet without personality at all.

Trip is not as innocent as he seems. In "The Expanse" he asks Archer basically to kill the people responsible (he doesn't actually say it, but the meaning is clear.) He uses the friendship he has with Archer in a way that somebody less close to the captain couldn't. In "The Aenar" Trip asks Archer to let him go to Columbia "as a friend." He uses their relationship sometimes too.

[Aikiweezie]

I'm not sure if the writers intentionally had Trip & Archer's friendship wax and wane, or if it was just one of those things that they used when it was convenient. I did find a lot of contradictions when it comes to their relationship, though. There are several really heated and tense exchanges between them in seasons 2 & 3. Then in "the_abomination" they through in that dumb line about Trip being Archer's #1 fan. I never saw any hero worship there.

I think Archer chose Trip for Chief Engineer because he recognized his talent and saw someone who could be flexible and think on his feet, and who he could count on for loyalty.

[WarpGirl]

You know I'm going to have to look up everything now don't you Alelou? OK I have to say I don't buy Trip as a victim either, anything he's "endured" either from T'Pol or Archer he chose to endure. Now as to why he made those choices I think can be left up to interpitation. Personally, I'd say he thought any pain caused was worth it. Is that innocence? No. But he always struck me as the type as one who puts up with the people he loves flaws, because he loves them, no other reason.

Although I'm not sure a grieving conversation on the eve of a suicide mission counts as using a friendship for your own aims. Archer wanted revenge just as badly. And just because I don't like Archer doesn't mean I think he's the devil, he isn't. Like I said I think he's so wrapped up in his own reality that not much else gets through.

But yes I admit I saw times when Trip manipulated Archer based on friendship. But then I saw Archer do it as well.

[honeybee]

Season 1, Trip and Archer did appear to be quite close. The first scene is them together (with the exception of kid Archer) and they do seem to be hanging out a lot. Then, they really seem close in Desert Crossing, with Trip idolizing Archer.

Season 2, Archer seems to be closer to T'Pol, though there are still scenes of Archer and Trip getting along. The Carbon Creek scenes early on and others. But Trip does seem to react jealously - not for T'Pol sake but for being left out - in the Seventh. Then, they really fight in Cogenitor. But they also have the nice male bonding scene in The Expanse, which sets the tone for Season 3. The one where Trip wants to aggressively go after the Xindi.

Season 3, Archer doesn't seem close to anyone, and we get the TnT bonding. Trip seems to start seeing Archer more as a captain than a friend. He still respects him, but they don't seem to hang out much.

Season 4, That seems to continue. Trip seems to have grown out of his hero worship of Archer and is coming into his own. They still like each other, but they are on different paths. Another reason I call horse**** on *the_abomination*. Trip seems very much headed to his own captain-cy in Season 4 - no way he would still be on Enterprise "ten years later" without a promotion. Had the show continued, he would have stayed, obviously. But a good wrap up of Trip's character would have been him moving into his own command. Best thing about the episode Twilight was Captain Trip and his sidekick Captain Malcolm.

[Silverbullet]

Believe that Trip took what T-Pol did to him because he was so damned much in love with her he could do nothing else. He was a man trapped in a desire and need for one woman who he could not wallk away from no matter what it cost him.

Archer. Cannnot see Trip as his No. one fan or a fan at all. Archer never earned Trip's loyalty.
Just the opposite. He dumped trip in season one for T-Pol, never gave Trip credit for his actions that helped the crew and the mission or even an "Atta boy" at all. Archer was a poor commander. His continual "That's an Order" showed that he believed the crew was stupid and could not understand when an order was given. Since he considered th4e crew so dumb it is no wonder that he thought he had to do everything himself. That shows an insecure and inept commander. In all four seasons Archer made my teeth grind.

[WarpGirl]

honeybee You amaze me sometimes, I like the way you can express things so clearly.

[honeybee]

Ah, thanks Warpgirl. I am a nonfiction writer by trade. Or used to be, when there was work to be had doing that LOL. So, there. Now, I use my writing time to write fanfic until I come up with some new clients.

I know Archer isn't the most popular figure around here, but he is being a good captain and a good friend in Desert Crossing. He knows Trip, knows how to keep him fighting and alive. After his mistake in going down to the planet without thinking it through, he steps up and takes responsibility for his actions and Trip's well being. I wish we had had more episodes like that.

It is true that in Similitude, Archer shows a complete understanding of how important Trip is to the crew. But he doesn't seem to be so much fighting for a friend, but a completely necessary chief engineer. Although, there might be friendship subtext in the scene where he tells to T'Pol they need to be prepared for Trip not surviving.

[WarpGirl]

Well I have to admit in Desert Crossing he wasn't so bad. But I don't like him as a person I guess, and I'm sorry but when he chased after that Wraith in Rogue Planet without a communicator or a weapon, he destroyed any chance with me as a competent cpatain. Still, I have to admit you've made some excellent points.

[Alelou]

Actually in Desert Crossing I think we're already seeing Trip's relationship with Archer changing -- not enough that Archer can't guilt Trip into doing something he doesn't really want to do -- but enough that Trip isn't eager to go in the first place, and freely (if a little cautiously) gives Archer his advice about the situation. And Archer clearly feels like crap about the situation he's gotten Trip into.

When you're friends in a chain of command situation that's always a bit fraught. I can think of a number of friends I really wouldn't want to have to supervise. I also have former employees I'm still friends with, but so far there's always that sense of being older and in a different place in my life. I suppose that could evolve if we were close enough geographically to hang out more, but we're not.

Good luck finding clients, Honeybee. It really sucks out there.

[WarpGirl]

The one thing that is true for every relationship is that they take time, time to come close together and time to unravel. But I gotta say I think being pregnant had to have pushed Trip into growing more.

[honeybee]

Good luck finding clients, Honeybee. It really sucks out there.

Thanks! And thank goodness I have a teaching job on top of the writing! I have had a habit of writing for at least a couple hours most every day for years, and I've been filling that with fanfic since I have no work anymore.

Actually in Desert Crossing I think we're already seeing Trip's relationship with Archer changing -- not enough that Archer can't guilt Trip into doing something he doesn't really want to do -- but enough that Trip isn't eager to go in the first place, and freely (if a little cautiously) gives Archer his advice about the situation. And Archer clearly feels like crap about the situation he's gotten Trip into.

I agree. It's a good evolution, as far as I'm concerned ...and it's too bad they didn't play with it more. I think Archer needed both T'Pol and Trip's perspectives to be a good captain, and he didn't listen to them often enough.