Happy endings? Sad endings?

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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby panyasan » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:23 pm

WarpGirl wrote:Which story? I woke up and it was all a dream has it's uses. I'm sorry but it does. I honestly don't care, unless it's so sad I'm physically crying. I don't like to cry in sadness. I don't like to cry period.
Sorry, I was refering to a movie that started as a comedy, then became a heartwrenching drama (I cried!) and then he wakes up. The end is kind of cool, but after the drama and him waking up, I felt a little bit cheated, so I can imagine the picked this storyline as one of the worst endings. And no, I didn't end one story of mine in this way, it can be use very creatively, I was only using my morning humor - which didn't work.

Back to the topic: the theme of Enterprise was Faith of the heart. Terra Prime fitted far more with this theme of hope (I think it is meant to be a theme of hope and mans progress) then *the_abomination*. In fact, the whole song mocks the entire episode.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:26 pm

OK as someone who has a love/hate thing going with that song... (Love the song, hate that it's the themesong to an ST series) I have to say I never considered that at all. But you are SO RIGHT! Thank you for pointing it out.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby panyasan » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:30 pm

WarpGirl wrote:OK as someone who has a love/hate thing going with that song... (Love the song, hate that it's the themesong to an ST series) I have to say I never considered that at all. But you are SO RIGHT! Thank you for pointing it out.
I liked the idea behind the trailer (Enterprise and exploration through the ages), but the song was a bit too slow for my taste. It didn't communicatie the thrill of exploration and going into space for the first time. The theme song and trailer for Voyager for example was much better.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby Alelou » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:35 pm

honeybee wrote:And as to angst, people do seem to think that once a couple is in love, some angst must be there to keep it interesting. I think that can be true, especially if the show is about the relationships, but this show missed the boat with all the potential difficulties of an interspecies romance - which would have been uniquely Trek. And again, that gets me back to the topic at hand - this show needed an interspecies romance to symbolize the future - and a happy/ambiguous ending was in order. I don't think a sad ending fits with the narrative arc of the entire show.


I totally agree. That's why "Terra Prime" works just fine as a finale, and *the_abomination* utterly bombs and is hard to understand as anything other than some not-entirely-conscious, self-destructive hissy fit.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:37 pm

Oh VOY was my favorite for just about everything! They changed the tempo of Faith of the Heart in season 3 I really liked it then. But I still say it shouldn't have been a themesong for an ST series. ;-)

Alelou nobody trashes *the_abomination* with as much wit and intelligence as you do. :D
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby justTripn » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:59 pm

I am belately resonding to WarpGirl's complaint that House is contrived. Well, yes . . . but since it doesn't infringe on my areas of expertise, experience (medicine, pain in the leg) I am able to swallow it all. EXCEPT the one suicide. NO! That was contrived.

Again, House doesn't regularly contrive a horrible, horrible ending. There is plenty of "family feeling," caring for each other among the staff, even if House is inexplicably unable to reciprocate. AND this most recent season upsets the the old formula--that House is always right (as in correct about the facts); House is unable to work on his relationships--to some extent. Enough to feel very fresh and surprising.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:02 pm

Well chronic pain and medicine are my expertice, and experience as a recipient of both. And House (the guy) is merely a self absorbed entitles ass! So his angst doesn't move me. Oh well...
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby Silverbullet » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:46 pm

A bit off Topic. will someone please explain the Expressionn "Jump the Shark?"

I am sort of out of the Loop as far as slang goes in this era.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby WarpGirl » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:51 pm

"Jump the Shark" is a phrase to describe a TV show that has become boring, stale, or just plain bad. It was coined after the "Happy Days" episode where Fonzie 'jumps a shark' on waterskis. Usually a show "Jumps the Shark" when leading man and leading lady become romantically involved because of the lack of sexual tension. At least that's the theory.

Back OT... I say give a couple realistic problems and having them work through them is important to story telling. And if a story, movie, tv show, does that. I can have an unhappy ending that makes sense and has meaning.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby Aquarius » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:33 am

justTripn wrote:Well, in my mind, even a sad Trip and T'Pol story is going to be kind of happy because Trip and T'Pol and crew are basically good people trying their best, so even under stressful circumstances we are not going to get betrayal and backbiting, which would be truely sad, but people pitching together and caring for each other. Sometimes a sad occurance or a big obstacle provides the opportunity for all this latent community spirit to go into action.


Got to this thread late, but so far, I have to say I agree with this, and the concept of "natural consequences." And that doesn't mean that the natural consequences have to be bad; it's just seeing what happens when these particular characters with these particular personalities get pushed a certain way. A positive resolution can still be found in many situations, or at least a "good enough" compromise that still may not be what the characters originally hoped for.

As a reader, I often like happy endings that aren't necessarily the tidy, snapshotty variety.

Rule number one for good fiction: surprise me! So if you can give me happy that's a surprise, that's awesome. If you're setting me up for happy and something comes out of left field that I didn't see coming and makes it not happy, that's cool too. If it bums me out too much, I can go watch Cartoon Network for a while and forget about it. ;-)
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby Aquarius » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:04 am

Alelou wrote:
honeybee wrote:And as to angst, people do seem to think that once a couple is in love, some angst must be there to keep it interesting. I think that can be true, especially if the show is about the relationships, but this show missed the boat with all the potential difficulties of an interspecies romance - which would have been uniquely Trek. And again, that gets me back to the topic at hand - this show needed an interspecies romance to symbolize the future - and a happy/ambiguous ending was in order. I don't think a sad ending fits with the narrative arc of the entire show.


I totally agree. That's why "Terra Prime" works just fine as a finale, and *the_abomination* utterly bombs and is hard to understand as anything other than some not-entirely-conscious, self-destructive hissy fit.
.

Along this line, I would like to add that just about any competent teacher of writing fiction, as well as the writers themselves, will tell you that characters without problems simply aren't interesting. That said, sometimes I think some people just will categorically label something as "angst" if it isn't simply a shiny, happy fic full of not much more than a meandering of tedious every-day details. Everyday life is full of challenges big and small, and what makes people interesting is how they cope with them. If a writer isn't going to give his or her characters some kind of challenge to meet or obstacle to overcome, I'm not interested.

Now again, that's something that can be misconstrued. It doesn't have to be all melodramatic like tossing every horrible thing you can think of at a character. Even the basic plot of a simple sitcom revolves around the one or more of the characters having a problem that needs fixing. Take a show like Married With Children: a believable "problem" in this milieu could be that Al wants to go to the nudie bar and Peg won't let him. Now, nobody would watch if Al just said "Okay, Peg" and didn't go. So we get thirty minutes of Al trying all kinds of crazy schemes to do an end-run around his wife, which could even end up "happy" (he gets to go to the bar and stick dollars into the waist of a stripper's g-string), or, as what usually happens on this show and for this character because he's supposed to be kind of a loser, he'll get busted and his wife will take all that money he was going to spend on the stripper and buy something she really wanted, something she probably told Al she wanted at the beginning of the show. Point being: "problem" doesn't necessarily have to be defined as something "angsty" and horrible; rather, it's simply the reason we're bothering to tune in and/or read in the first place, it's the reason the plot exists.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby WarpGirl » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:36 pm

Aquarius do you like Jane Austin at all? I mean most people would objectively say that she was a brilliant author, but her stories aren't "surprising" in a OMG I had no idea that was coming, way. Unless you count Mansfield Park I guess, because that was her only book that blatently dealt with adultry. You say the number one rule of fiction is to surprise you. But in what way?
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby honeybee » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:13 pm

Jane Austen wrote romances, and they had happy endings. But in the context of her times, it was inherently surprising that people actually fell in love. Or that they overcame obstacles. Also, what is surprising is the wit with which she treats her subjects. There is also conflict in those books. But one of the reasons Jane Austen is considered so brilliant is that she manages to be so good and have romantic/happy ending plots. It's not easy.

I think people's milage varies on this issue, but I can enjoy both happy and sad endings - as long as it is well-written and genuine.

I don't like , beat-the-characters-up, beat-me-up depressing stuff. I don't like fluffly, no conflict stuff - unless it is very short. It's all about balance for me.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby WarpGirl » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:31 pm

Amen honeybee! I just think having "surprise me" as the number 1 rule of fiction, completely subjective.
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Re: Happy endings? Sad endings?

Postby Alelou » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:17 pm

Hey, Austen is full of desperate women at risk of growing old as poverty-stricken spinsters or at least of losing their heart's desire. And there's ALWAYS conflict with the guy in question, whether it's because he's insufferable in some way (P&P) or pissed off that you dumped him once before (Persuasion), or unhappily secretly engaged to someone else (S&S) or coping with an abusive father (Northanger Abbey) or thinks he's too old for her (Emma), or is a freakin' idiot (Mansfield Park).
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