A strange thought...

[Asso]

A strange thought came to my mind.
I was reading the latest chapter of the beautiful honeybee's story "Family Secrets" and a phrase struck me:

"Enme looked at his sister. Her face was bloody unreadable. No expression whatsoever. She looked like a Romulan, but she sure as hell didn't emote like one. No wonder his ancestors had made the exodus. It would be a peculiar kind of hell to live among people that never expressed emotion."

Why struck this sentence me? It brought a thought to my mind: Romulans didn't follow Surak's path and they survived, though.
So, was Surak really right?
Many of you know I don't like too much the way Vulcans are shown, that I think their so said "Logic" doesn't reckon with the exact significance of the term "Logic".
But, in the light of that splendid sentence of honeybee and of the thought it brought to me, again, Surak... was he really right? Didn't he take away something really, REALLY, important for everyone (and I think T'Pol can truly understand what I mean, and not only she), when -thinking of Romulans - that wasn't necessary?

[WarpGirl]

Asso I am sorry but you are SO wrong! Surak was most certainly not wrong, Vulcans and Romulans are not the exact same people. They have genetic differences, and different brain chemistry. Because of than their emotions aren't so dangerous thatt hey can't have some control. You know it really makes me sad that you don't like true Vulcans. You don't seem to like Spock either, it's like you need T'Pol to be something other than what she is. It is very sad to me.

[panyasan]

I am not sure if Romulans and Vulcans are so much different. Romulans are problably mixed, but still have much in common with Vulcans. They are called the cousins of Vulcan, so there are family ties. Maybe Romulans have control by militairy discipline, much like the Vulcan by emotional discipline. Futher, even when tSurak's path is the true path for a Vulcan, if a Vulcan doesn't follow that path, it does not make him less Vulcan. Vulcan is in his genes, not matter what path he follows. You can discuss that a Vulcan only would truly come to his potential if he follows the path of Surak - but if not - that person is still a Vulcan.

[WarpGirl]

Oh I know they're cousins. But it's like comparing dogs and wolves. Both members of the same family, but very different in a key ways. And non-Vulacans can also follow the path of Surak, but the truth is when a Vulcan is "out of control" their health is at risk. Examples abound: Sarek, Tuvok, Spock, T'Pol and so on. Pon Far is the time of mating but not exactly what kills. Plak Tow is what kills and the first symptoms is a loss of control. Romulans don't need such stringent control due to genetic differences. But their personalites are dominated by paranoia and extreme emotions. Not exactly healthy.

I've always said that Vulcans do have and express emotions, but not in the same way humans do. And that's even if they don't follow Surak. There's nothing wrong with that.

[honeybee]

Well, there are genetic differences between various human races, too. I look at Romulans and Vulcans as the same species - slightly different races of the same species. Trek has been very inconsistent about the nature of the relationship - but that's how I see it.

In the Romulan War books, Martin (and Mangels) portray the Romulans with the forehead ridges that Vulcans don't have - and that becomes and issue when Romulans masquerade as Vulcans and vice versa. I go with the TOS version - and they look just alike. I suppose the forehead ridges perhaps existed in a race of Vulcans that were from a region that didn't follow Surak - and they became the dominant race on Romulus after the Exodus. (Reminds self to write in a Romulan with forehead ridges in story.)

And when I wrote that line in "Family Secrets" I was thinking about Surak. Romulans rejected Surak - but in my story they are selfish, violent, racist and pleasure-seeking. They've replaced logic with pursuit of their own desires - including the desire for military conquest - as a focus. It's what makes them dangerous.

The character Enme in the story (T'Pol's half brother) is finding himself drawn to humans (not Vulcans) because they have more balance and compassion than the Romulans but aren't as suppressed as the Vulcans.

[WarpGirl]

That makes sense. But I have to admit, I pretty much follow TNG because I think they had the best Romulan/Vulcan clashes. I admit Nemesis threw me for a loop with the Remans. The closest expanation I came up with in my "warped" imagination, was that the Vulcans and the Romulans were in the same situation as the Valakians and the Menkh (ENT Dear Doctor) obviously none of them were in danger dying out. So for thousands of years before Surak, they lived together, intermarried, and fought with and aganst each other while Vulcan was tearing itself apart. Then comes Surak, and the Romulans don't like it so most of them leave, and then are bent on conquest and revenge.

[Escriba]

Romulans are some imperialist sneaky bastards. Vulcans are a pacific and (even in their patronizing ways) supportive people. So, yes, I'd say Surak was right.

In my mind, Romulans were (as Honeybee has put before) a race among Vulcans. I always picture them as the weak faction. Not as emotive or strong, always at hte receiving end of the other Vulcan parties at war. When Surak came, they didn't believe him and they left, because they didn't do anything wrong. The irony is that they're still are the weak people, when unleashed, Vulcans are 100 times more dangerous and mortal.

That's why Vulcans must control their feeling, so the feelings don't control them.

But I don't completely agree that they don't experience emotions. They do, more than Humans. It's simply that they don't express them with words. I don't know if this is something I created or something that somebody had written it before, but I imagined a scene with T'Pol telling (accusing) Trip that "Humans always talk about dying for love, but you rarely do so. We actually do it, more times than you could imagine." For Vulcans deeds are more important than words. Words can be manipulated, after all, and anybody can lie.

[WarpGirl]

THANK YOU for that! I've been trying to come up with a way to explain how I see Vulcans expressing their emotions. Because THEY DO! They might not scream I LOVE YOU, or I HATE YOU, at the top of their lungs, but the message comes across. This is why I have a severe problem with T'Pol spouting wordy declarations of love in Fic, or any other emotions really. It comes across as totally fake and opposite of the intentions.

[panyasan]

That's why Vulcans must control their feeling, so the feelings don't control them.

But I don't completely agree that they don't experience emotions. They do, more than Humans. It's simply that they don't express them with words. I don't know if this is something I created or something that somebody had written it before, but I imagined a scene with T'Pol telling (accusing) Trip that "Humans always talk about dying for love, but you rarely do so. We actually do it, more times than you could imagine." For Vulcans deeds are more important than words. Words can be manipulated, after all, and anybody can lie.

I really love your quote, Escriba. It's so true. I do agree that Vulcans need control - in this Surak is right - but I have trouble with the "everything has to be logical". Vulcans have a heart, mind, katra and body and all those aspects makes a person. Not everything is heart or everything is logical. I remember letting T'Pol say to Soval discussing the death of her daughter "There is no logic in this" and had her thinking "Logic can be very cruel." Is the bond logical? Is loving your child logical? So in that aspect, you may say, Surak wasn't totally right.

[Escriba]

I understand what you're saying. But yes, the bond is logical, for a species that cannot express emotions verbally, it's very important.

I guess Vulcans, for me, represent the quote (that I take from Terry Pratchett's novels) "Personal isn't the same as important." Surak never said "don't feel", he said "master your feelings." Loving someone is all right, making that love so important that you put other people in danger isn't.

[WarpGirl]

Dang it Escriba why do you have to live in Spain? On second thought maybe it's a good thing, if we ever met it would be scary. I totally agree with absolutely EVERYTHING you just said.

[Escriba]

It's Destiny, WarpGirl. This way you can spread logical havoc in your continent and I can spread logical havoc into mine

I'd like to share the metaphor I use to write Vulcans (because yes, they're aliens to me too.) I call it "the grieving allegory." Imagine that somebody dear to you has died, or that you've had a painful love break-up, and you're so hurt that you decide to do something pretty radical (like moving to another city or something like that). What would your friends and family say? "Relax," "Don't rush to do it," "Think a little about what you're doing," "Take your time"... etc. Now, think that you're in that grief striken situation all the time. That's to be Vulcan. That's why they have to control and rationalize every second of every minute of every hour of every day. Remember being in love? Try to imagine the same sensation but a million times more intense.

It's a scary thought, actually.

[WarpGirl]

Terrifying yet so true! It's just nice to able to have someone "get it." You know my aunt promised to take me on a trip anywhere in the world I want when I get a few health problems fixed. Spain was in the top three contenders... Actually sometimes I wish I were Vulcan, I mean I feel too much sometimes, and it's like "I want to put this away for now." Probably why I love Temperence Brennen too.

[Asso]

I think a little bit of clarity has to be made.

FIRST:

Logic's definition.

1. The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

2.
a. A system of reasoning: Aristotle's logic.
b. A mode of reasoning: By that logic, we should sell the company tomorrow.
c. The formal, guiding principles of a discipline, school, or science.

3. Valid reasoning: Your paper lacks the logic to prove your thesis.

4. The relationship between elements and between an element and the whole in a set of objects, individuals, principles, or events: There's certain logic to the motion of rush-hour traffic.

5. Computer Science
a. The nonarithmetic operations performed by a computer, such as sorting, comparing, and matching, that involve yes-no decisions.
b. Computer circuitry.
c. Graphic representation of computer circuitry.


Now, people can be in agreement with me or they can't, but, in the light of these logic's definitions, I can't help but think that the writers, when they searched for Vulcans to act and think logically, had ideas really confused with regard to Logic meaning.


SECOND:
Controlling and repressing are not the same thing. Controlling emotions is compatible with life and evolution. Repressing emotions is absolutely dangerous. Impossible. And if you think of Aliens who are able to “REPRESS” emotions, they were VERY ALIEN, to such an extent that no communication would be possible. (That seems not true, I think, between Humans and Vulcans.)


THIRD:
Surak. Was he wrong? Probably he was, at least a tiny bit. He mixed logic up with another thing.

FOURTH:
I like Vulcans, and exactly because of that, I want them to act and think differently from illogical puppets.
And I don't like when everything is settled quickly.
When Sarek tells his son, asking him why he married Amanda, that this was the only logical thing to do... well, maybe this can appear funny, but in reality it hides the impossibility to explain everything with that "so said" Logic which the writers thought was necessary in order to sketch "The Cold Aliens

One last thing.

...I don't know if this is something I created or something that somebody had written it before, but I imagined a scene with T'Pol telling (accusing) Trip that "Humans always talk about dying for love, but you rarely do so. We actually do it, more times than you could imagine." ...

Ah, perfect! The best image of a passionate woman! If you allow me, my dear Escriba, the best Human T'Pol I have ever read!

[WarpGirl]

I'm sorry Asso but I truly believe with all of my extremely passionate Irish/Italian/French heart that you are absolutely and completely wrong. I don't think you understand the concept that Gene Rodenberry had when he developed Vulcans. And because you might not understand it, you miss a lot of things that Vulcans have to offer. You say you like them, but all I'm getting is that you want them to turn against what they are supposed to be. Maybe language barrier, but that's what I see.