A strange thought...

[Asso]

I'm a simple man. I like what I like. I hope I'm not wrong in doing that.

[WarpGirl]

Of course not! Nothing wrong with that at all. But the point of talking is to have a discussion. You brought the topic up, so that means you're inviting people to disagree, even debate. When I say you're "wrong" it doesn't mean you can't have your own opinion. It means I think you're missing things that should be considered on the subject we are discussing.

[Asso]

I don't know if I will bring any other topic up.
I have to think about that.
Maybe it's better I only write, if my Muse helps me.

I beg pardon of everyone.

[WarpGirl]

Not fair! Some of us are having fun because you DID bring this up. If you don't like talking about it that's one thing, but I for one have learned A LOT from this topic. So Gerazie mille! Thank God for google.

[Escriba]

Asso, don't stop your threads, they're actually, you know, interesting

One last thing.

...I don't know if this is something I created or something that somebody had written it before, but I imagined a scene with T'Pol telling (accusing) Trip that "Humans always talk about dying for love, but you rarely do so. We actually do it, more times than you could imagine." ...

Ah, perfect! The best image of a passionate woman! If you allow me, my dear Escriba, the best Human T'Pol I have ever read!

Ehhh... thank you?

Well, that was the point of my post, actually. Vulcans are so emotional, so passionate that they can't slip their control not even a bit. They need an objetive way when dealing with others, and that's Logic.

[WarpGirl]

Oh Escriba I think we're the resident Vulcans on these boards. Secret Handshake?

[Asso]

Not fair! Some of us are having fun because you DID bring this up. If you don't like talking about it that's one thing, but I for one have learned A LOT from this topic. So Gerazie mille! Thank God for google.

Non c'è di che! Not at all!

... They need an objetive way when dealing with others, and that's Logic.

Obviously I disagree, but, substantially, the outcome is the same.

[WarpGirl]

You see that's where you lose me Asso people can't disagree and the outcome be the same. It's not supposed to be the same. You think Vulcans are supposed to be more human, I don't different outcome. Not the same.

Anyway, learning Italian is on the life list, but my great-grandmother wanted to teach me and it didn't work out. She called me a whore, and my sister a so I didn't want her to teach me.

[justTripn]

Was Surak wrong? Is it possible to Vulcans to survive without logic and suppression of emotions? I think the Vulcan culture (Surak's teachings) is one possible solution to the problem of the aggressive nature nature of Vulcanoids. Maybe militaristic authoritarianism is another (from a survival perspective). I believe that the Vulcan pacifism is clearly superior from a moral perspective. But we have seen that Vulcan culture also has its downside--Vulcans feel superior to other races and their is an intolerance for deviations from the cultural norm. In economics, and other sciences, we often say that a particular situation is a local but not a global equilibrium: That is Vulcan culture plus Vulcan biology is a good enough match it can remain stable for millenioum, but given a big enough shake Vulcan culture could transform into something else that will be "good enough" to keep people from killing each other. Imagine a marble on a shakyy plane with different dents of different depths. The marble will fall into a local hole be stable there for a very long time or forever if the hole is deep enouph. Or with a big enouph shake it will jump out and roll to a different hole. Just because the Vulcans have found a solution to the problem of their natural agressiveness doesn't mean this is the only possible solution or even the best solution. Maybe the Romulans have almost the same genes but fell in a different "hole" (cultural solution to the problem). People used to survive as serfs obeying the church and working for nobility who ruled and protected them. They used to imagine that was the only way society could be organized. It took a very big shake to move to a different system. Just because something works and is stable doesn't mean it is optimal.

[WarpGirl]

Very true. However since this is about Romulans and Vulcans, I'd have to say that the Vulcans are indeed "right" when compared to their relatives. Also whether they are right or wrong is subjective as long as they aren't harming others. And Vulcans by and large have curbed that pretty well. Not perfect of course, but what is? Now compared to the Romulans that willingly blows up tens of thousands of troops when they can't invade Vulcan (Unification 2 TNG) I'd say YES Surak got it right. Also why I say V'Las was a Romulan!

[Asso]

Ah JT! Your mind is almost higher than your soul. You really caught what I meant.

[WarpGirl]

Here look at this... (From Memory Alpha Unification 2 TNG) The Vulcan ships begin to retreat to the Neutral Zone, with the Enterprise in pursuit. Suddenly, a D'deridex-class warbird uncloaks; Riker calls red alert, but the warbird destroys the three ships, with over 2,000 Romulan troops aboard, rather than let them be captured.

In caves that Pardek never knew about, the remaining underground movement resolves to continue working for change in Romulan society. Picard and Data prepare to beam up to K'Vada's ship, but Spock chooses to remain behind, saying his work has never been more important. As Picard and Spock discuss their gently adversarial relationship, Spock comments that Picard may know Sarek "better than his own son did. My father and I never chose to meld." On hearing this, Picard says, "I offer you the chance to touch what he [Sarek] shared with me." As Data watches, Spock places his hand on Picard's face and makes contact with the essence of Sarek that remains in Picard's mind, and Picard thus fulfills the request that Sarek made: Spock's face is suffused with emotion as he realizes the depth of his father's love for him.

Now as a society Romulans not good guys, their emotions not helping anyone, not even themselves.

And as for Vulcans, EMOTIONS! Just not the way humans EXPRESS them!

[justTripn]

I was just reading about Lafayette. A native Frenchman, he came to America at age 19, threw all his energies into the cause of liberty in America, and succeeded! He returned to France and proposed exactly the same thing there, calling for a National Assembly (like a Continental Congress). As we all know, the Revolution in America went well, and the Revolution in France went spectacularly badly. In France liberty and freedom of speech, meant let's run wild and chop off people's heads. Same philosophy--same human genes--it worked in the one case and not in the other due to alot of variables particular to American and French culture. So if the Romulans don't follow Surak's philosophy and still manage to exist that doesn't prove that Surak was "wrong." Maybe Romulans have the potential to benefit from Surak's teachings if certain aspects of their culture change and lay a foundation for acceptance of logic and pacifism.

Or maybe Surak's teachings are not the "last word" on how Vulcanoid society should be organized. YIKES Heresy!

[Asso]

... Or maybe Surak's teachings are not the "last word" on how Vulcanoid society should be organized. YIKES Heresy!

That's my play!

[WarpGirl]

I need some clarification again. Are we just talking about the ENT era, or is everything allowed?