Does the Academy exist?

[Thot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but does Starfleet Academy already exist at the time of Enterprise?

I can't remember that it was ever mentioned by anyone.

For example in "Harbringer" Trip tells Amanda Cole, that Malcolm had been eating during Starfleet training the same three meals every day for a year, but not at the Academy.

Is it possible, that the personal from Starfleet isn't trained at a single institution, but the people get recruited by Starfleet at an early age and then they received extra training until they manage to pass certain tests?

At least it would make more sense, that Starfleet was orginally intended to be a primarily civilian institution and not a military one, but was later on forced to incorporate into its structure.

But at the same time it would make Trip's rising in his ranks even faster: At least 2 or 3 years training, what would cut his career from Ensign over Lieutenant and Lieutenant Commander to Commander in 9 to 10 years.. That's pretty heavy

Edit: I have just checked Memory Alpha: They state that the Academy was founded 2161! Look also at the logo (=> MMCLXI)

I just saw, that I'm turned into an officer! (Crewman => Ensign) In less than three days...

[Silverbullet]

Thot congratulations. Heh

Acadmy. The bunch at the Enterprise series took a lot of liberties with things.

As far as Starflet being civilian. Gene Roddenbury said he based Starfleet on the U.S. Navy which to me means he wanted it to be a Millitary not civilian insitution.

Given their Ranks and the fact that Archer was always yapping "that is an Order" I kind of think it was military from the git go.

There is preceent for the military doing exploration: Lewis and Clark, Captain Cooks journey's. Even Napoeon had men out exploring and he took scientists with him to research.

Frankly a military ship would be better for exploratuion. On a military ship orders are followed without any discussion or pause and done with some efficiency. On a civilian ship there could be discussion and dissent which woulld have to be dealt with.

SB

[Aquarius]

Memory Alpha notwithstanding, there still could have been an academy, but "The Academy" as we know it could well have been founded in 2161, but that's not to say it wasn't something else.

For example, I go to Eastern Michigan University...but it wasn't always EMU. Before that, in the 1800s, it was the Normal School (presumably because Normal St. runs through our campus), a school that produced teachers and nothing else. Gradually they added more things to their curriculum, the campus got bigger, and eventually it evolved into Eastern Michigan University. It's similarly possible that Starfleet outsourced some of its training in the beginning, being that it was so new, and eventually absorbed some schools or built a formal academy later--but the lack of "The Academy" doesn't mean that their people wouldn't receive the appropriate training.

[Thot]

@ Aquarius

Your version could be right. I grant you that.

As far as Starflet being civilian. Gene Roddenbury said he based Starfleet on the U.S. Navy which to me means he wanted it to be a Millitary not civilian insitution.

At one point, Hermandez states she is "not sure how [she] feel[s] about a military officer on the bridge." which seems to indicate that Starfleet, at least in pre-Federation times, is not considered to be a military organization. This lines up with a similar comment made by Admiral Maxwell Forrest in ENT: "The Expanse".

quote Memory Alpha

I grant it completly, that the Starfleet of Kirk and later are the space version of the Navy, but I always liked the concept of the Starfleet of Enterprise at first being the step between the NASA and the space Navy. But later Starfleet had to evolve into a more military form.

Given their Ranks and the fact that Archer was always yapping "that is an Order" I kind of think it was military from the git go.

Is the NASA a military institution? And they have people with ranks.

There is preceent for the military doing exploration: Lewis and Clark, Captain Cooks journey's. Even Napoeon had men out exploring and he took scientists with him to research.

Well, these cases have the aftertaste of being examples of colonization or mere hunts for prestige. I'm not sure about Lewis and Clark, but most likely did they get the support for their journey, because others were watching for opportunities to colonize.
And that stands quite clear against the ideals of Starfleet. Look at what Paxton said to Archer: The stars are their for us to take! At least Cook and Napoleon would agree to Paxton.

Frankly a military ship would be better for exploratuion. On a military ship orders are followed without any discussion or pause and done with some efficiency. On a civilian ship there could be discussion and dissent which woulld have to be dealt with.

I just think the concept of mankind being at first so reluctant to anything military after the events of the 21. century (World War III, Colonel Green, nuclear fallout etc.) is convincing.

But over time they are forced to acknowledge, that I can't stay this way: Obligations to other allies, the Xindi Crisis, the Romulan War etc.

It's just good potential for the series to pick up plots/dialogs.

Look at Germany after World War II: In the 50s the huge majority of the population was against to ever build an army again, although the country was splitted into two halfs and occupied. The goverment had to force it through. What do you think the reaction would be after World War III on a global scale?

[honeybee]

Perhaps Starfleet had rigorous training and sent its officers to various universities for training and degrees because the Academy didn't exist - but was evolving into existing.

So, it's "official" founding could have been in 61 - but people like Trip who joined young - could have been sent to get degrees elsewhere, as well as getting intense Starfleet training.

Also, there's the example of Oxford University - colleges there are usually in existence for twenty or thirty years before being "officially" accepted into the university. So, Starfleet Academy could have existed in some looser form prior to 61.

[Alelou]

The street was probably named after the school. In now outdated parlance, a 'normal' school was one created specifically to train teachers.

I could imagine Starfleet Academy starting out as a sort of cooperative mishmash of satellite programs from other institutions -- plus its own training -- before it incorporates officially.

[Aquarius]

*shrugs* they didn't give us that part of the history when I did my freshman orientation 20 years ago. Out here, a lot of buildings and streets bear the same name because of whoever owned the town at that time, so I just filled in the blanks with that assumption.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

IIRC, they screwed up with mentioning an Academy on ENT before they realized that Starfleet Academy wasn't supposed to have been founded until 2161. So they later mention something like "Starfleet Training". I take that as an institution that allows you to get a commission, a specific training for the needs of officers in the United Earth Starfleet. It could presumably be done after or during (like ROTC) the time someone gets an academic degree. I can picture Trip, for example, getting his advanced engineering degree at some MIT-like institution and then (or during) his Starfleet training.

*****

As for Starfleet as a military, I'll repeat what I have said on this issue a gazillion times before (copying and pasting from my harddrive):

Starfleet is a military organization and nothing - including statements from the late Great Bird or other show-runners - can convince me otherwise. Simply stating that it isn't military isn't enough. If something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Consequently if something performs military duties and operations (i.e. waging wars and defence) it's a military. And Starfleet does just that, both in the ENT era and later on. That does not preclude it from doing exploration and stuff like that. In fact it was naval vessels that did a lot of the exploration on Earth's oceans (they still do).

To re-use a real life analogy I've often used, when the Bolsheviks seized power in Russia they abolished the police. The very name "police" smacked too much of Czarist times for the reds. But they too needed a police force (much more than Czarist Russia it turned out) doing what police forces normally do (plus a lot of other things, but that's another topic). But they called it a "militia" instead, and to this very day, even after the fall of the USSR, the Russian police is still called "militsiya". It doesn't change the fact that it for all intents and purposes is a police force.

So Starfleet could be called The Girls Scouts for all I care and still be a military if it performed the tasks and duties we've seen it do.

As far as Starfleet's history goes, we can only guess. It might have been a more civilian organization at first, like NASA, but it pretty obvious that that changed over time. My own personal take is that UESPA (the canonical United Earth Space Probe Agency) was the equivalent of NASA and that sometime during the first half of the 22nd century had to develop a military capability, and thus Starfleet was born. As to the cause, perhaps the Earth-Kzin War(s)?

And the MACOs? Well, they're obviously a military ground operations organization. If Starfleet is a navy equivalent, then I'd consider them a part of the army (or marine corps) equivalent.

I have no intention to rehash this argument again, so I'll just leave it as this.

[bluetiger]

This conversation between Trip and Hoshi is all I remember

TUCKER: This reminds me of my dorm room at Starfleet Training. Got into a lot of trouble at old STC.
HOSHI: I got kicked out.
TUCKER: Well, you can't stop there.
HOSHI: In my second month, I had a difference of opinion with the Company Commander. I broke his arm.
TUCKER: Can I ask why?
HOSHI: Poker.
TUCKER: You broke his arm playing cards?
HOSHI: He tried to shut down a game I was running for some of the recruits, and a couple of the training staff.
TUCKER: Hold on. You ran a floating poker game at STC?
HOSHI: The way the regulations are worded, gambling was an honour violation only if it took place during duty hours. So I ran the game on weekends. One night my C.C. showed up, tried to sweep all the chips off the table, and I. Well, I have a black belt in aikido. I think he was just upset that I hadn't invited him to play.
TUCKER: What happened?
HOSHI: I got a bad conduct discharge.
TUCKER: How the hell did you end up on Enterprise?
HOSHI: Starfleet needed language specialists more than they needed to make an example out of me. They let me back in on probation, and here I am.

[Silverbullet]

If Hoshi got a bad conduct discharge then Starfleet is military. So Trip is a Fulll commander in a military organization.