Questions about the Cogentior

[justTripn]

Hi all. We have recently had two different takes on the episode "Cogenitor": Alelou's missing scene and Silverbullet's.

Relating to those two stories, and of course to the original episode: Here are my discussion questions:

1) Did Trip feel guilty for what he did after Archer reprimanded him? He had been defending himself nonstop up until the end when he finds out the Cogenitor committed suicide, so that episode really doesn't tell us if he felt responsible. Does a later episode tell us that?

2) SHOULD he have felt guilty?

3) Was the Cogenitor situation (the way the Cogenitor was treated in that society) a "natural" result of the biology of that species or was it unnatural, like Human slavery?

4) The Cogenitors are born to females in a 3% ratio. What happens to the children? How and where are cogentitor children raised? Are they sent off to a compound at a young age?

I will put on my administrator hat now, and say preemptively, lets not get into how a three-gendered species "does it." Not out here on the forums anyway. Silverbullet wants to be in on this discussion, but he is away on vacation for a few days. He will join you later!

[justTripn]

I have lots to say on this, but for now, relating to question 1, Did Trip feel guilty? From the conventions I know that Connor has said that Trip felt responsible for the death of the cogenitor and the experienced was a turning point for the character. (Don't remember the exact words or anything at this distance.)

[Rigil Kent]

1) Did Trip feel guilty for what he did after Archer reprimanded him? He had been defending himself nonstop up until the end when he finds out the Cogenitor committed suicide, so that episode really doesn't tell us if he felt responsible. Does a later episode tell us that?

I'd say yes, he did feel guilty. After all, a sentient took its own life because he got involved.

2) SHOULD he have felt guilty?

Yes ... and no. Morally, I believe he was the only Main Character in the episode who was completely in the right - Archer was something of a hypocrite at the end, particularly since he routinely interferes with alien cultures based on his human mores and standards (and, in fact, steps in to rescue the pretty "sex slave" in Rajiin), but that's pretty common, and while T'Pol's non-interference stance was consistent with her previous behavior, I still believe she (and the VHC and then ultimately, the Starfleet of later eras) are wrong with their application of would become the Prime Directive (especially with how corrupted it becomes in the TNG era and beyond.) Officially, however, Trip was wrong to do what he did because T'Pol effectively told him to stop even if she didn't make an official order; regardless of what one may think about it, T'Pol was the ship's first officer and thus, the 2IC, so Trip was required by Starfleet regs to obey her when she told him to cut it out.

So I believe that Trip should feel bad that Charles committed suicide, but since he stood on the very principles that United Earth (and later, the Federation) is supposed to stand for, he was the only person here who wasn't slime. So naturally, the showrunners had it blow up in his face.

3) Was the Cogenitor situation (the way the Cogenitor was treated in that society) a "natural" result of the biology of that species or was it unnatural, like Human slavery?

4) The Cogenitors are born to females in a 3% ratio. What happens to the children? How and where are cogentitor children raised? Are they sent off to a compound at a young age?

Not enough information to answer either of these. Charles the Cogenitor may have been an aberration, or he/she/it may have been perfectly normal ... we simply don't have enough evidence to say either way.

[Alelou]

I'm going to snip from my own comments at my "Cogenitor" story to respond to Rigil's critique based on Rajin.

I want to defend Archer here a little (gasp). In "Rajin" there is a definite question raised about whether Rajin is ALREADY doing her mental mojo thing on him in the slave market. He did manage to resist at first -- so she makes it into a heat-of-the-moment melee, complete with close physical contact. Also, needless to say, this did come AFTER "Cogenitor." It is also worth noting that Rajin was a slave in a slave market where lots of different species were on the market, so it's not like he was plucking her out of her own pristine culture. Besides, she was a slave in a slave market -- no bones about it. We may regard the cogenitor as a slave, but the Vissians clearly didn't, and it apparently didn't either until Trip got involved. Indeed, its quick and lavish adoption of Trip's suggestions makes me wonder if cogenitors cope with their weird biological situation by happily becoming whatever is wanted.

This would mean that the cogenitor, once she accepts Trip's direction or domination, would enthusiastically embrace what he believes about her. Going back to the other couple's much less intent desires for her must have seemed very difficult. This also implies that shifting from one couple to another must be a bit wrenching, or perhaps they are bland enough that they all seem pretty much the same, until wham, there's Trip.

I was wondering about that 3% of the population and the babies, too. You'd think, if it's so hard to get a cogenitor, that HAVING one yourself would be a tragedy. Perhaps you turn it over to the government and go to the front of the line for another child? I think Distracted had a post about this recently, but I would have expected scarcity would create certain perks or privileges for the cogenitors. On the other hand, if there are truly so few of them, and they are so vital, perhaps the biological/emotional compulsion to serve that need is overwhelming, and thus any real desire to meet one's own original goals never develops.

[panyasan]

My only response would be my own experience with other cultures that included things that in my opinion made people really unhappy and cutting down on their chance to grow as a person. As an outsider it was hard to change that situation in that culture, but I could try for example in contact with friends, showing in my life and maybe in conversation show that there were other ways. At the end, they made the choices out their life and if they wanted to move it in a different direction.
For me, that is exactly what Trip is doing in The Cognentior, he shows he/she a new world and potential for he/she. When he/she is seeking those things and refused - he/she could choose to keep trying or seek a way out. He/she choices asking for find refuge with Starfleet and was refused. She/he choices that he/she couldn't life without those options and killes him/herself. Is it Trip faults? Yes, he didn't obey an order, but I think morally he did the right thing. However, Alelou made a great point by saying that Cognentior didn't think of him/her as slave. Haven said that, would she/he commit suiciude or would be so ready to listen to Trip if he/she already felt like a slave?
Does Trip has to feel guilty? I don't think so - he couldn't predicted the outcome when he was trying to help the Cognentior. Does he feels guilty? Everybody close to some one who commits suiciude does.

[Rigil Kent]

I'm going to snip from my own comments at my "Cogenitor" story to respond to Rigil's critique based on Rajin.

I want to defend Archer here a little (gasp). In "Rajin" there is a definite question raised about whether Rajin is ALREADY doing her mental mojo thing on him in the slave market. He did manage to resist at first -- so she makes it into a heat-of-the-moment melee, complete with close physical contact. Also, needless to say, this did come AFTER "Cogenitor."

That wasn't my major point, though. In your Cogenitor missing scenes installment, you briefly touched on the fact that Archer has (to the point of Cogenitor) routinely interfered with alien cultures in a similar manner (and, in fact, will continue to do so all the way to the end of the series) based on his human-centric mindset, but he quickly excused doing so with what I thought was a fairly weak defense (those were multiple people, not a single one, which I find fairly reprehensible myself - apparently, it's a numbers game for him whereas Trip focuses on individuals. And yeah, I was a little disappointed but not particularly surprised that T'Pol didn't call him out for being a blatant hypocrite.) My remark about Rajiin was simply an example that I thought to be especially similar due to their respective roles in society - if one wants to, they could go back to the episodes before Cogenitor and pluck out numerous examples of Archer getting involved with alien cultures but it never blowing up in his face (because he's the Captain and this sort of thing never bites him in the ass.)

We may regard the cogenitor as a slave, but the Vissians clearly didn't, and it apparently didn't either until Trip got involved. Indeed, its quick and lavish adoption of Trip's suggestions makes me wonder if cogenitors cope with their weird biological situation by happily becoming whatever is wanted.

This would mean that the cogenitor, once she accepts Trip's direction or domination, would enthusiastically embrace what he believes about her. Going back to the other couple's much less intent desires for her must have seemed very difficult. This also implies that shifting from one couple to another must be a bit wrenching, or perhaps they are bland enough that they all seem pretty much the same, until wham, there's Trip.

Which is why I said there isn't enough information to do more than hypothesize about the cogenitor's role in Vissian culture. Perhaps Charles is something of a freak and the other cogenitors are barely intelligent, or perhaps they're just to be subservient as you theorize, or perhaps this couple was just an aberration and were assholes even to other Vissians. There just isn't enough data to really formulate an opinion about the cogenitors, IMO...

[Alelou]

No, there isn't, except that the clues that are in the script suggest they weren't total assholes -- they took the Cogenitor with them to meet the Humans (and have ice cream), and when Trip wanted to meet it again, the woman said, "I'll see if it's awake." If you really think of someone as a tool, you wouldn't care one way or the other.

I won't argue that Archer wasn't a hypocrite in general on that issue, because it's impossible. Numbers really don't matter, which was what I hoped T'Pol was quietly suggesting. I just don't think Rajin makes a particularly good counter-example.

[justTripn]

Alelou, are you suggesting that the Cogenitor could have been primed biologically to latch onto people and so jumped at the chance to hang out with Trip? Actually that would have made the intended lesson of this episode work a little better. In this case, the outcome really is the result of Trip interferring in what he doesn't understand. But I don't think the writers had any such backstory in mind.

I agree with panyasan that Trip could not have anticipated that the Cogenitor would have committed suicide. It seeems contrived writing. So he is guilty of disobeying an order but not otherwise guilty of trying to help the Cogenitor. More later . . .

[Alelou]

Alelou, are you suggesting that the Cogenitor could have been primed biologically to latch onto people and so jumped at the chance to hang out with Trip? Actually that would have made the intended lesson of this episode work a little better. In this case, the outcome really is the result of Trip interferring in what he doesn't understand. But I don't think the writers had any such backstory in mind.

It's just a thought that occurs to me. I agree, it was not shown in the episode to any degree that made it a real story consideration. However, think about what it must be like to go through life as a cogenitor. Nature usually primes us to want to do what we need to do to procreate. So a cogenitor, being only 3% of the population, ought to feel driven to serve this role for all these different couples. And what would make that easier? Potentially, an ability to sublimize your own desires and interests in favor of others' -- you get your pleasure from pleasing whoever you're with... your reward, presumably, is sexual pleasure plus any interest they show in you in return. Perhaps also the sheer joy of variety. Trip is an expert at showing attention to people ... and he also represents the ultimate in variety.

[crystalswolf]

The episode just reminded me of Alien Nation binnaum. It was implied that they love everyone and everything (not in a sexual sense of course) and are sensitive to others' emotions (not like Troi). This also fits in with Alelou's idea that they subconsciously figure out what others want from them. BTW, I bring this up because it's the only other show I can remember that tackled the issue of 3 genders.

[justTripn]

The episode just reminded me of Alien Nation binnaum. It was implied that they love everyone and everything (not in a sexual sense of course) and are sensitive to others' emotions (not like Troi). This also fits in with Alelou's idea that they subconsciously figure out what others want from them. BTW, I bring this up because it's the only other show I can remember that tackled the issue of 3 genders.

So the third gender of the Alien Nation aliens loved everyone and everthing or the whole species? I can only very vaugely remember that show, but I do remember it was solid science fiction. Oh wait? Did they get drunk on water? Or drunk on milk? It's started to come back to me. Ut oh . . . did they explode when they touched water? And they all named themselves after famous Humans throughout history?

[crystalswolf]

So the third gender of the Alien Nation aliens loved everyone and everthing or the whole species? I can only very vaugely remember that show, but I do remember it was solid science fiction. Oh wait? Did they get drunk on water? Or drunk on milk? It's started to come back to me. Ut oh . . . did they explode when they touched water? And they all named themselves after famous Humans throughout history?

The one main example of the binnaums (Albert Einstein) was very gentle and loving and couldn't bear to see any creature hurt at all, but he also had a VERY strong protective side as well. He also tried desperately to please others around him. Eventually, this endeared him to many of the police officers that did not like him at first, and also how the captain of the dept was able to essentially make him his errand boy. He wasn't very bright (hence his Alien Nation-y name) and many of the things he did was attributed to him being "special". I thought they meant that until they had a full episode describing Albert and the binnaums.

In the ep, binnaums were being murdered and of course because they represented a very small percentage of the alien population like to cogenitor, the Tenctonese were VERY worried. Those being killed left their Order and continued servicing families (as Albert chose to do) which was against their rules. So you have several binnaums that left their Order to pursue their own strange new lives on Earth but could not say no to helping families have children even against the rules they held to strongly. Turns out they were killed by the Order's leader and his passionate reason for this was that those that continue to help families have children need to be protected. Very twisted but also goes well with the very protective trait.

They got drunk off of spoiled milk. Although now that I know more about how milk spoils, I have many questions about that. Salt water was like battery acid to them. When they were accepted into the US with citizenship, the Dept of Immigration (for some reason I remember a dept of Tenctonese affairs, have to pull out my disks again) assigned them with "human" names. The running joke was that some guys "got a little punchy while handing out names to over a million people" but I think some were just cruel. The main alien character's original name was "Sam Fransisco" until (in the movie) Matt said he would not call him that and started calling him George.

The show was great for its time. Unfortunately it was in the same campy upbeat style of its time and many of the more complex topics they broached required a far darker tone. I hear they are thinking of "re-imagining" it. If done right, it'll be spectacular. If done wrong, it could be yet another lump of crap.

[justTripn]

Well, here goes my own theory about the Cogenitor. It was NOT a natural situation. The evidence is that the one random Cogenitor that Trip meets is very smart and very curious and WANTS to be going out and around with Trip. In Silverbullets's story Trip makes a good point to T'Pol:

"T'Pol you wouldn't want to be a slave, to be told you were worthless. Not to have any rights as a person."

"All very interesting, but how does that help the third sex."

"I opened a door for her. Showed her a life and world that she had a right to."

"You opened a door?"

"Yes, a door that showed she was as good as the other two sexes."

"But she was a third sex that was needed for the other two sexes to have a baby."

"Cogenitors could still do that but also do other things for their people and the other two sexes," Trip said.

I agree that the cogenitors could probably serve their reproductive function in society while also doing other things for their people and the other two sexes. The arguement otherwise is way too similar to arguments my mother faced and I even remember to some extent: "mothers belong at home with the children." "Pregnant women are expected to quit their teaching jobs because of course they are going to be home." "Women don't need education because they will not be getting jobs, just staying home with children." People who make these statements think these prescriptions are based on self-evident biology, when in fact it is based on culture and on the "need" to maintain a power relationship over women to get them to do the work of childraising that they might not do if they had all kinds of choices.


The Cogenitors are few in number and they are essential to the reproductive process. That could make them very valuable. If the Cogentitors were free to pick and choose who to help they would be fairly compensated, either with respect or affection or money. Maybe in the past the Cogenitors got together and tried to act as a monopoly, limiting their services to extort more money from the other two species. Well maybe the other two species rebelled and began taking Cogenitors from their mothers at an early age to go to a special government run school, then they would be assigned - "efficiently" from the perspective of the males and females - to couples wanting to have children. But this system can only work if mothers (who would love their little baby cogenitors and would advocate for them) are forced to relinquish their third sex children at an early age. They never become attached to them. NOBODY becomes attached to them. They are raised as orphans who get very little affection. They are willing to fulfill the role society assigns them, but their potential has been severely limited, and when someone throws them a lifeline--a little bit of respect and attention, an offer of a way out, they grab it.

I am reminded that slavery was justified as the necessary solution to a "labor problem." They were "needed" to grow cotton. They were essential to a way of life. Of course you can pay people to work for you voluntarily then there is no "labor problem" only the "problem" of former slaveowners being much poorer. That's how I see this Cogenitor problem. If the Cogenitors have to agree to work with you, you have to "pay' them more or respect them more or be nice to them. If Cogenitors are assigned to jobs by the state their is no longer any need for males and females to woo them with offers of money, love, or fringe benefits.

Ann

[justTripn]

Thanks, Cyrstalwolf! . Can you explain this part again:

In the ep, binnaums were being murdered and of course because they represented a very small percentage of the alien population like to cogenitor, the Tenctonese were VERY worried. Those being killed left their Order and continued servicing families (as Albert chose to do) which was against their rules. So you have several binnaums that left their Order to pursue their own strange new lives on Earth but could not say no to helping families have children even against the rules they held to strongly. Turns out they were killed by the Order's leader and his passionate reason for this was that those that continue to help families have children need to be protected. Very twisted but also goes well with the very protective trait.

Were the binnaums being murdered on Earth by Humans? Oh, I see. If they left the Order (because they now lived on Earth and had other opportunities) the ORDER killed them. I get it. Is that right?

[crystalswolf]

The rebellion of the other two species is a very interesting idea. I like it a lot!

Although, I don't think it was okay for them to have the Cogenitor isolated the way they did, I don't think Trip should have done what he did. It was the very first contact with the species and both sides were still figuring out what they think of the other. Changing the rules for one member of the species would not help any of the others at that point. Perhaps if full trade and communication were formed between them and humans, Earth could have had the same rules several countries in Europe had when slaves were brought from the US "you're on our soil, you're free" but they never even got to that stage.

In Alien Nation, the leader of the Order killed them, no one else knew about it. If binnaum left the Order and did not continue to help families have babies, he didn't care. That was part of their rules. In fact, many of the Tenctonese thought it was one of the Purist humans trying to kill their species. The leader got his wish for a time, many of the binnaum returned to their monastery for safety... until they found out what their leader was doing.