Enlistment?

[JadziaKathryn]

It occured to me that we never see anyone reenlisting on screen. Now, my knowledge of the military is sparse, but I'm guessing it's different for officers. (Rigil, CX, Elessar - care to shed some light on that?) Anyway, the enlisted people don't just say, "Here I am to join the Navy for a while, as long as I feel like it." It's more like, "Here I am, signing up for three years. And when those three years are up the Navy will want me to sign up for three more years." So how might that work for Starfleet?

[CX]

Usually officers contract for a certain number of years. If I'd graduated like I was supposed to, I'd have been contracted for 4 years. Beyond that I'm afraid I don't know.

[TSara]

When I enlisted in the Army I was required to sign for a total of 8 years.
I could have done all of them active, but instead I broke it down into 4 active, 4 Inactive Reserve.

I'm pretty sure the Army requires an 8 year enlistment across the board, BUT for certain MOS's (Military Occupational Specialty- aka jobs in the Army) the enlistment requirements may be different. So don't quote me on that.

As far as I know....and I can ask at work because I work with a bunch of Navy/Air-force guys and gals the other services require the same 8 year service commitment.

I'll ask around after the holiday if you would like.

edit* One of my friends at work is a Capitan in the Air-force I can call her later today and provided she isn't busy get the skinny on the officer thing as well.

[Drogna]

My brother-in-law is in the Navy (UK) and he has signed on for 8 years, he's currently a Lieutenant. My father-in-law was also in the Navy and was a Chief Petty Officer. As I understand it, you sign up for an initial 8 years and then, if you get good reviews, you're encouraged to sign up again for another 8 years. If you're not considered to be doing well then you're encouraged to leave. In either case it's pretty much a case of a chat with your superior officer, and then signing some paperwork. After the second 8 year period, you can then sign up for a further 10 years, but at this point you can leave with 18 months notice (this may have changed since my father-in-law's time, unfortunately my brother-in-law is currently on deployment so not around to ask). Re-enlistment can often depend on whether there is a promotion or a post available, so if your promotion prospects are slim then you would probably want to leave. Apparently this bit is particularly important when you're a Lieutenant Commander as there are fewer Commander billets.

Each contract period is a mixture of sea time and shore drafts. It currently seems to be two years at sea and then two years on shore. However there may be certain posts which demand more shore time.

Different services have different ways of doing things and since we've never seen anything on screen, Starfleet could easily do something else. Starfleet seems to do a lot of weird things with its personnel.

[Rigil Kent]

Starfleet seems to do a lot of weird things with its personnel.

God, ain't that the truth. Like, I dunno, making a member of a rival stellar nation's service the first officer. Or even worse, making her the first officer when she's a civilian. And don't get me started on how stupid it was of them to make her the XO in season 4 when she was outranked by Tucker (time in grade, time in service.)

Stoopid Starfleet.

[Navigator]

OK, first off all US Military Personnel Policy is determined by the Department of Defense. Each of the services (Army, Navy, etc.) can vary the implementation of that policy somewhat to meet the needs of that service. Also things tend to change based on budget and the economy in general. For example, in the case of officers, if the economy is really good and they are having a hard time retaining officers, leaving active duty will be harder. If the economy is bad and too many are staying in the service, then policies tend to get tighter.

Historically, for the officer corps in the US military, there are two types of commissions, regular and reserve. With a regular commission, you serve at the pleasure of the President, which is to say that you stay until you get permission to leave or retire, but with a minimum commitment of four years of active service. Permission to leave is granted by you submitting your resignation. If that resignation is accepted by the Secretary of the Navy, then you will be given a date of discharge somewhere between 3 months and one year into the future when you will leave active duty. Once again, it depends on how much they need people right then. Every officer gets a "fitness report" once a year. Those fitness reports go to the selection boards who determine whether or not you get promoted. If you go before a selection board for the next higher rank more than two times without getting selected for promotion, you will be discharged. If you have at least 20 years of service in, you can retire.

The reserve commission is a bit different. With that you commit to a certain number of years - it used to be six for Navy. That was divided into three years of active duty (usually as a junior officer on a ship) and three years of reserve where you are required to join and participate in a reserve command or unit. If you had a reserve commission and desired to stay on active duty at the end of the three years, you had to apply.

Also understand the above only describes leaving the service under good conditions. Officers can be charged for criminal misconduct (court martial or non-judicial) or can be removed administratively for non-performance.

This was a four paragraph glossover. I could give you the details but everyone would be asleep instantly. Army and Air Force do things slightly differently, but not significantly. Also since 9/11 the lines between Regular and Reserve have blurred a lot. You would also be surprised at the number of Navy personnel (Regular and Reserve) performing land combat roles in the sand box, so traditional service roles are changing too..

Now to relate all the to the original question - UESPA claiming they aren't military is either a bunch of propaganda or they are like the Merchant Marine (especially with all this first officer, second officer crud), and the way they apply for positions ( example: Tucker going to Columbia). If they are like the Merchant Marine, there is no court martial authority and all you could do would be to transfer someone back to earth and let the civil authorities handle them if a crime was committed. If they are military, well, I can't really comment on that without getting banned from the board due to foul language.

I will say this. If UESPA was military and Tucker transferred to the Columbia and got it out of the yards when nobody else could, there is no way he would have come back to Enterprise as ChEng. At least, not for more than a couple of weeks until the boys in San Francisco got him permanently reassigned, probably as the Chief Engineer of the yard. A place for the pointy eared Commander would be found, trust me.

As an afterthought, if anybody with any sense were in charge, Tucker would have been ChEng of the shipyard, and T'Pol would have been OIC of the OpFor (Opposing Forces) team, with a Neptune class done up as a Bird of Prey. In other words, your ship didn't go into space until you either beat T'Pol or held your own. Think Top Gun. Also fan fictions that have them returning to the Enterprise after being project managers for a new generation of warp engine or whole class of ship wouldn't happen either.

Happy to answer any questions, this may have generated.

Rigil, I agree with you except that the relationship is not so much rival as it is like the relationship between the RN and the USN. If she had continued to hold her Vulcan commission, it would not have been so strange (remember a Canadian General used to be the deputy at NORAD. Third season - well third season is just, well, third season.

[JadziaKathryn]

As an afterthought, if anybody with any sense were in charge, Tucker would have been ChEng of the shipyard, and T'Pol would have been OIC of the OpFor (Opposing Forces) team, with a Neptune class done up as a Bird of Prey. In other words, your ship didn't go into space until you either beat T'Pol or held your own. Think Top Gun.

But then it wouldn't have been Enterprise!

I just wondered, because I've read fanfics where people retire pretty quickly. I just wondered if Starfleet might say, "Nope, we own you for another year and a half."

[Rigil Kent]

T'Pol would have been OIC of the OpFor (Opposing Forces) team, with a Neptune class done up as a Bird of Prey. In other words, your ship didn't go into space until you either beat T'Pol or held your own. Think Top Gun.

Dude, I love that idea!

Rigil, I agree with you except that the relationship is not so much rival as it is like the relationship between the RN and the USN. If she had continued to hold her Vulcan commission, it would not have been so strange (remember a Canadian General used to be the deputy at NORAD.

NORAD is a different beast, though. It was supposed to cover both the US & Canada, so it stands to reason that they would have a Canuck in there. ENT isn't a joint operation, so it doesn't make any sense for her, as a Vulcan and member of their armed services, to hold the XO job. Would it ever happen that a Canadian or Brit holds the position of XO on a US cruiser or destroyer? Nope.

[Navigator]

As an afterthought, if anybody with any sense were in charge, Tucker would have been ChEng of the shipyard, and T'Pol would have been OIC of the OpFor (Opposing Forces) team, with a Neptune class done up as a Bird of Prey. In other words, your ship didn't go into space until you either beat T'Pol or held your own. Think Top Gun.

But then it wouldn't have been Enterprise!

I just wondered, because I've read fanfics where people retire pretty quickly. I just wondered if Starfleet might say, "Nope, we own you for another year and a half."

Could do that easily if Starfleet were military, but if Starfleet had been military, Hernandez would have been commanding the NX-01 after Archer got relieved for cause at, oh about, mayby the third episode.

[Rigil Kent]

See? It isn't just Zathras who is saying that. It's the actual navy veteran. Zathras told you this, but nobody ever listens to Zathras.

[CX]

[Navigator]

T'Pol would have been OIC of the OpFor (Opposing Forces) team, with a Neptune class done up as a Bird of Prey. In other words, your ship didn't go into space until you either beat T'Pol or held your own. Think Top Gun.

Dude, I love that idea!

Rigil, I agree with you except that the relationship is not so much rival as it is like the relationship between the RN and the USN. If she had continued to hold her Vulcan commission, it would not have been so strange (remember a Canadian General used to be the deputy at NORAD.

NORAD is a different beast, though. It was supposed to cover both the US & Canada, so it stands to reason that they would have a Canuck in there. ENT isn't a joint operation, so it doesn't make any sense for her, as a Vulcan and member of their armed services, to hold the XO job. Would it ever happen that a Canadian or Brit holds the position of XO on a US cruiser or destroyer? Nope.

Start writing. BTW nobody ever likes the Op Eval, Op For, ORI people anyway, so why not "give it to the Vulcan".

Although not the XO, the Navigator billet on the USS Winston Churchill is a Royal Navy billet. Or at least was.

[Rigil Kent]

Could that Navigator ever be in command of the ship? As in, at any time when the captain goes and gets his damned fool self captured and beat up (which seemed to happen fairly frequently on ENT)?

[Navigator]

Could that Navigator ever be in command of the ship? As in, at any time when the captain goes and gets his damned fool self captured and beat up (which seemed to happen fairly frequently on ENT)?

In a word, unless I read the policy wrong, Yep.

[JadziaKathryn]

But, Britain and the US are allies. Just like Earth and Vulcan are allies. So we're not saying, "Here, al-Qaeda sympathizer, navigate our ship!" And Starfleet wasn't saying, "Here, Klingon, be the XO/Science Officer!" That, in my humble and civilian opinion, is a significant difference.