Trip/T'Pol and Edward/Bella Similarities

[Elessar]

Yep. As I've said before, Twilight the book appeals to teenage girls who rarely read anything because the author's target audience is teenage girls who rarely read anything. Ditto the movie, although my 17 year old seldom-reader griped bitterly about the movie because it didn't follow the book.

It followed the book it just rearranged some things to make up for the fact that a book-to-movie copy would be 14 hours long. They introduced Jacob RIGHT AWAY even though it was like halfway through the book before. They invented some friend of Charlie's that gets mauled by "an animal" (really the bad vampires) I think the purpose of that was to number one, insert another parallel plot line to keep the viewer more busy, since a viewer is more visually demanding than a reader, and secondly I think it was to create more doubt in the viewer's mind initially about whether or not the Cullens could be trusted, so it shows you some vampires killing some guy to make you think it's the Cullens... even though there was hardly a mention of there being "other vampires around" until they actually showed up in the book. Other things were sped up or simplified the way any book-to-movie is. I saw the movie first, so maybe that colored things... you don't tend to be a book purist if you see the movie, then read the book, then see the movie again. IMO, that's the best order to go, otherwise you'll just be disappointed (about any book) since they always leave things out.

Most of the complaints/critiques I see about Twilight tend to be along the lines of it being simplistic, teeny bopper-oriented writing, which I agree with to an extent. Here's the problem: If you started Twilight and you came to that conclusion, even in the unusual event that you gave it the benefit of the doubt and finished the book, you almost certainly didn't read New Moon and I guarantee you didn't read on any further. The series gets a lot - I won't say "better" - but it gets more mature and more contemplative than the first book. In this humble reader's opinion , you end up with an arrangement of characters with a lot of dynamic and unusual relationships, some sophisticated questions of morality and the ever-present dreamworld of love and happiness. Make no mistake, it's definitely a fantasy romance.

I'll say one more thing about their "romance" - 'what do they have in common?' Well it's not really a practical romance, it's like a harlequin romance. It's not tryin to be a practical romance, it's trying to be a fantasy romance.

[Bether6074]

Yep. As I've said before, Twilight the book appeals to teenage girls who rarely read anything because the author's target audience is teenage girls who rarely read anything. Ditto the movie, although my 17 year old seldom-reader griped bitterly about the movie because it didn't follow the book.

That doesn't really follow true with my daughter. She is an avid reader. I'll buy the kid a half a dozen books and she'll finish them in a week. Going to the bookstore is usually followed by, "Read that one....already read it...have it...nope, already read it..." That's why I've started using the library. She's reading us out of house and home. I bought her a book a few days ago called, "The Hunger Games" and it's already done. I was actually very pleasantly surprised that she liked Twilight. She's never been interested in any kind of romance stories before. There could be good potential mother-daughter time in this.

[Linda]

When my granddaughter wanted me to write a story for her she specifically said, "Vampires, Grandma, NOT Vulcans!" But when you consider it, there are some elements in common between Vulcans and Vampires: tall, dark, handsome and very alien people, repelling and attracting you at the same time. Super human strength, intelligent, distainful. I have to follow this line of thought more because I don't think what fascinates me and what fascinates my granddaughter is very different.

[Elessar]

Yep. As I've said before, Twilight the book appeals to teenage girls who rarely read anything because the author's target audience is teenage girls who rarely read anything. Ditto the movie, although my 17 year old seldom-reader griped bitterly about the movie because it didn't follow the book.

That doesn't really follow true with my daughter. She is an avid reader. I'll buy the kid a half a dozen books and she'll finish them in a week. Going to the bookstore is usually followed by, "Read that one....already read it...have it...nope, already read it..." That's why I've started using the library. She's reading us out of house and home. I bought her a book a few days ago called, "The Hunger Games" and it's already done. I was actually very pleasantly surprised that she liked Twilight. She's never been interested in any kind of romance stories before. There could be good potential mother-daughter time in this.

, I know why she read that! (The Hunger Games), Stephanie Meyer recommended it on her blog!

When my granddaughter wanted me to write a story for her she specifically said, "Vampires, Grandma, NOT Vulcans!" But when you consider it, there are some elements in common between Vulcans and Vampires: tall, dark, handsome and very alien people, repelling and attracting you at the same time. Super human strength, intelligent, distainful. I have to follow this line of thought more because I don't think what fascinates me and what fascinates my granddaughter is very different.

Yeah, it probably has roots somewhere in the mythology that contributed to the common legends about vampires, which are probably related to fairies and dark elves and things, and of course Vulcans are pretty much spot-on Elves.

[Alelou]

When my granddaughter wanted me to write a story for her she specifically said, "Vampires, Grandma, NOT Vulcans!" But when you consider it, there are some elements in common between Vulcans and Vampires: tall, dark, handsome and very alien people, repelling and attracting you at the same time. Super human strength, intelligent, distainful. I have to follow this line of thought more because I don't think what fascinates me and what fascinates my granddaughter is very different.

I think that's a really good insight, actually. Other than them being hotter instead of colder, and the total lack of appetite Vulcans would have for sucking your blood, it really is similar.

Okay, now we need a vampire Vulcan. I think there's at least one vamp story on ff.net, but I couldn't get into it. Maybe Trip was a vampire.

[Alelou]

Ut oh! Is this from cooking? I can't have sharp knives or that's what happens. All my knives are dull. When I cook for people coming over they watch me saw all my ingredients with a steak knife, and always comment on it, and I have to explain that this is a deliberate choice.

Sharp knife in soapy dish pan. What's really bad is that I cut one hand in a minor way, went off cursing to put on a bandaid, stalked back to the kitchen to get that knife out of there, and promptly did a much worse job on my other hand.

I was tired and annoyed. Bad combination.

[Bether6074]

Oh no, Alelou! I missed the finger-slicing post. I guess that's what happens when I skim through threads. Poor Alelou has diced her finger and here I am going on about my daughter's reading habits. I'm sorry about your finger. I've never been to Albany Memorial, but I am capable of getting lost anywhere. I took my son to Samaritan when he smashed into the tree. No bridges. I hope your finger heals nicely.

[Alelou]

Not to worry, Bether. It's healing nicely, and I'm actually getting pretty good at nine-fingered typing.

Plus I got out of my food pantry shift today. Stocking and bagging groceries or sorting clothing nine-fingered ain't really worth the inevitable bumps. So now I can catch up on grading, once I stop procrastinating here... (sigh)

(Sorry, thread originator. Topic, what topic? )

[Elessar]

I watched the extended scenes and deleted scenes last night... interesting. My reactions to the "Special Edition" materials:

I can't exactly 'squee' because my reaction was mixed. A few of the extended/deleted scenes I was like "That's probably best you didn't include that" because a few were just kind of ... off... like just bad atmosphere, I don't know. Then again, as long as they thought they were good, I don't understand why they didn't just splice them into the film like LOTR did. I am BIG BIG BIG fan of extended cut DVDs. They are *always* better. My reaction to the blu-ray materials is lackluster... blu-ray is capable of quite a bit and I don't see any of it on this particular disc. I'd just be happy with a full-extended cut disc with the bonus scenes.

Some movie spoilers below:

There were 1 or 2 scenes, however, that totally should have made the movie. There was an entire deleted scene from the two of them just walking together in the woods that was cut from the film, which the director said she wished they could have included, and it was also Kristen Stewart's favorite scene. If you, like me, noticed a big lack of screen time to the portion of the first book that basically was just composed of them hanging out together once all the awkwardness and "i don't know if he/she likes me" phase was over, you'd like this scene, but it's basically one scene to kind of make up that whole part of the book, which was pretty lacking in the theatrical release of the movie.

They're walking in the woods and, for one, Kristen looks great. She's not nearly as drab and boyish the way that Bella looks in most of the film. She actually looks confident of herself, which kind of speaks to the development of their chemistry and would have probably plugged an important and noticeable hole in the film, which was, the lack of much, if any at all, evidence to the effect that they ever did completely fall in love in the movie at all. Almost nowhere are they completely comfortable with each other, and this scene's a good example of that condition. Anyway, the dialogue is to the effect of Edward saying "You shouldn't walk alone in the woods anymore... or at least now without me... I am not always the most dangerous thing out there anymore." which in the book I always thought was a veiled reference to the werewolves, but I guess in context of the first book exclusively, was more about James, Victoria and Laurent. Friggin French vampires. Anyway, Bella asks if it was bad vampires who are killing people, and Edward says yes... she says, "You know my number was probably up when that van slid towards me... maybe you're just screwing with fate." and Edward kind of laughs and says, "Your number was up the moment you met me Bella," and kind of gracefully stops, falls backwards into the leaves and pulls her with him by the waist. What struck me was how simple and smooth the movement was, it didn't quite strike me as a fall. It did a good job of emulating what they describe as this unearthly graceful movement of vampires. Anyway. They're on the ground and she asks if "he wants a taste" and he goes "yeah" with like mock eagerness and she sticks her finger in his mouth and he bites down on it and she gets this look of mock alarm and tries to pull back and then winces slightly and I'm not sure if this is the intent... but almost looks like he DOES break the skin and tastes her blood, but is totally comfortable and cool with that. Like he's not even phased. She takes her finger back (he lets go with his teeth) and then puts it in her own mouth and sucks on it like maybe it's a boo boo. Pretty hot scene

The commentary was... interesting. Suffice it to say, based on her comments about why certain scenes were included or why certain facial expressions were used by the actors, or how they did certain things... I developed the following 3 opinions:

1. Robert Pattinson is a lot smarter than people probably give him credit for

2. So is Kristen Stewart

3. The director seems like kind of a newbie

4. The director (Catherine Hardwick) might have a major cougar crush on Robert Pattinson, lol

More feedback to come tonight, as I have not finished the commentary.

[Distracted]

Has anyone seen New Moon yet? I went today with my son and my youngest daughter. Great scenery.

SPOILER!!!:

I'm afraid I really don't buy the Bella/Edward pairing now, though. Why would any even semi-intelligent girl prefer Edward over Jacob? I mean, is the girl BLIND? I'm old enough to be Taylor Lautner's mother and I was still like... Oh. My. God. I guess I should be ashamed of myself. My eleven year old daughter was rolling when Lautner stripped his shirt off and every teenaged girl in the theater squealed. She doesn't quite get it yet, thank God.

[enterprikayak]

Someone's feeling better.

[Distracted]

Thanks for noticing. Life sucks sometimes, but I'm dealing with it.

So... Trip/T'Pol and Edward/Bella similarities.

SPOILER!!!:

I can see T'Pol leaving Trip "for his own good" despite him asking her to stay (just the way Edward left Bella) if T'Pol came to the conclusion that a relationship between them would do him serious harm. I don't see Trip being capable of doing the same, not if she begged him not to go, but that's just my interpretation.

[Elessar]

Has anyone seen New Moon yet? I went today with my son and my youngest daughter. Great scenery.

SPOILER!!!:

I'm afraid I really don't buy the Bella/Edward pairing now, though. Why would any even semi-intelligent girl prefer Edward over Jacob? I mean, is the girl BLIND? I'm old enough to be Taylor Lautner's mother and I was still like... Oh. My. God. I guess I should be ashamed of myself. My eleven year old daughter was rolling when Lautner stripped his shirt off and every teenaged girl in the theater squealed. She doesn't quite get it yet, thank God.

D did you just evaluate the emotional connection between Edward and Bella based on the romantic contender's physique?

I mean I see it... yeah, he's ripped, but you know what totally ruins it for me? Like ruins the believability.... Go back to Twilight... he's a soft little long haired girly dude. He's only huge and buff because they assigned him like an INSANE workout regimen. I guess that's true of every movie, like 300, but it just.... I heard about it all running up to this movie, so I totally wasn't surprised. It's not just some happenstance like "oh wow, hey look, Taylor Lautner is friggin ripped!"

That and in SO many other ways (assuming she was NOT hopelessly in love with Edward from the beginning), he's a total douchebag. Let me tell you, if you didn't read New Moon (I can't remember if you said you did), but he's such a douche. He snaps at her like a million times, he insults her friends and the guy he knows she loves like left and right. Ok sure, he's the competition, so the whole "all's fair in love and war" thing can justify him saying shit about Edward behind his back, but he REPEATEDLY insults the Cullens in general in front of her and it's obvious it upsets her. He's an emotional rollercoaster. There's no way she could be with him, he's a friggin wreck. If he were a woman, women viewers would be railing against him as a controlling, neurotic fruitcake. At no point in the story from the moment he leaves the movie theater feeling sick, to the end of Breaking Dawn, is he even remotely emotionally stable! He basically doesn't have any redeeming qualities whatsoever until mid-to-end-of Breaking Dawn.

He's just hot and charming. If you read New Moon, you will get a more accurate perspective on just how "taken in" Bella was by the time they spent together before Alice showed up - and that is to say, NOT AT ALL. He was a temporary fix and only in her direst, most despairing moments did she even consider the possibility that she could force herself to care for him, simply to try and patch up the hole that Edward left behind.

Trust me, there is more realistic chance that T'Pol would go for Archer than there is that Bella would go for Jacob. TBH, she just uses him... she uses him to stay sane.

PS: I'm going to do an official New Moon review

[Distracted]

Nope, it's not just appearances. Jacob is going through some tough physical changes, and yes... he doesn't possess Edward's Victorian-era icy civility. He says what he means and he means what he says. He's the earthy security to oppose Edward's creepy deadness. His smile is warm, not tortured by some twisted hunger. Sure, he might blow up and accidently hurt her, but he doesn't want to EAT her.

I've read the books. I know all about the "undying love" stuff, and I know that Jacob isn't destined for Bella in this series, but I still think that if I were in her shoes I'd choose someone like Jacob over someone like Edward. I also think that if we were to compare TnT gender for gender to these characters instead of switching them to make T'Pol the one who's like Edward, then Trip is much more like Jacob than Edward. T'Pol loves him because he's real, warm-natured and earthy.

[Elessar]

Nope, it's not just appearances. Jacob is going through some tough physical changes, and yes... he doesn't possess Edward's Victorian-era icy civility. He says what he means and he means what he says. He's the earthy security to oppose Edward's creepy deadness. His smile is warm, not tortured by some twisted hunger. Sure, he might blow up and accidently hurt her, but he doesn't want to EAT her.

I've read the books. I know all about the "undying love" stuff, and I know that Jacob isn't destined for Bella in this series, but I still think that if I were in her shoes I'd choose someone like Jacob over someone like Edward. I also think that if we were to compare TnT gender for gender to these characters instead of switching them to make T'Pol the one who's like Edward, then Trip is much more like Jacob than Edward. T'Pol loves him because he's real, warm-natured and earthy.

But his "smile is warm" and all that stuff is all pre-transformation. Sure, it's tough, but he's just as much a different person now as a vampire is after transformation. Just as one might look at Edward's affections as stemming from some sick hunger, barely tempered though they might be, Jacob's feelings are, from the point he's become a wolf forward, always communicated via anger and disgust and jealousy with her choices.

The way I was looking at it was comparing Edward to Trip not in a trait-by-trait comparison but in reference to the relative accepted behavior. The accepted behavior for T'Pol is a Vulcan... the accepted behavior for Bella would be Jacob. Obviously Jake is not like a Vulcan, but he's the "safe choice", at least until he transforms... then he's not so much, but as perceived by everyone else he kind of still is.