Stargate SG1 + Gun Fans?

[Elessar]

So, I"m recently going back through Stargate SG1 again. It was such an incredibly good series, especially in the beginning when it was all so new, with just this torrent of new information and development of storylines. My favorite part is the way you can watch this secret government program evolve to deal with and react to the new threats and the new challenges of the gate program. For that reason, it's a little more exciting to me than SGA or SGU could ever be. That being said, I always had criticisms about how they approached the "weapons" situation. Watching it over again (I'm only on 1x05) is proving very interesting because the weapon habits/conventions they developed by Season 8/9/10 are enlightened by comparison. I find myself thinking, and asking, what would I want? A lot of Special Operations troopers get to select their own weapon loadouts (within limits) and I am told that since about 2005, ALL troops are allowed, if they want, to buy their own optics (for their M4/M16, be it an Eotech, ACOG, illuminated dot sight, etc). To many people that probably made no sense but if you're an SG fan and a gun enthusiast like me, I though tit might be interesting to ask the question: what would you want and why? (Within what the U.S. military purchases)

Early in the show they carry MP5's and M9 Berettas. Later, of course, it became famous for sporting the P90 more than any other show. (Interestliny if nobody's ever noticed, The Ring operatives in "Chuck" have an FN Fiveseven with a weaponlight as their standard issue sidearm, but I digress).

There seem to be two different operating environments in SG1 - open field planets and spacecraft. For open field planets, I'd probably want something with reliability, range, and stopping power - like the Heckler & Koch G3 in .308 with plenty of extra 20 round magazines. Later on, we see big guys like Teal'c carry an M249 squad assault weapon but this is really just a faster-rate-of-fire, slightly-more-accurate-than-a-full-length-M16. It still fires 5.56 which is not exactly an armor piercing round. One little peave I've always had is that in "Children of the Gods", not a thing they fire can punch through Jaffe armor.... and then from the point they adopt thE P90, they slice through it like butter. The only thing the P90 really gives you is a high rate of fire, a long magazine, and a decently well adapted AP round in the SS190 duty cartridge that militaries and a few (Dallas Swat) law enforcement agencies buy... but it's nowhere NEAR as AP-capable as something like a solid core .308 round or even an AP 5.56 round. In all scenarios, I'd probably want to carry the Heckler & Koch Mk.23 Mod0 Expert in .45ACP as it's pretty much the single most accurate tactical .45 ever built (match accuracy).. Capacity is around 12 I believe. Just because you end up in a lot of scrapes on gate missions, I'd also want at least one concealed weapon, and if it had to conform to some basic military regulations, I'd probably make it a Ruger LCP in .380ACP.

For spaceship operations you'd want something a little more compact but with plenty of stopping power, like the H&K MP7 or the H&K UMP. Is it obvious yet I'm in love with H&K? If you were engaging people with body armor you'd want the MP5 b/c its new 4.6x30mm cartridge outstrips the 5.7 AP round in this aspect -- if not, you'd want the UMP because it's i.45ACP which is a superior man-stopping round. Two alternatives would be a folding AK74 in 7.62x39 which is an excellent cartridge inside 100m, or the older H&K MP5 in 10mm Norma, which I've only *heard* they actually made, but I"ve never seen one. 10mm Norma, for anyone who is a gun person but not familiar with, is a heavier anti-personnel pistol and submachine gun cartridge than .45ACP, and so considered most of the time to actually be overkill. For a very short period of time the FBI actually fielded pistols chambered in 10mm (the "Bren Ten") but as the agents already had trouble managing the recoil of .45ACP, it was hopeless. They soon chopped it down and invented the .40S&W and used that for quite some time... I think now they use .357 SIG. Sorry off topic !

I'm not an M9 Beretta fan but I'm curious to hear what someone like Rigil thinks of it, an actual serviceman who may've carried it and/or trained with it. I'm told they almost never actually see use because of the heavy reliance on the rifle.

I'm not even sure what the point of this thread was other than for me to brainstorm aloud . Gun guys out there -- you're on an SG team -- wohat would you ask for as your standard loadout?

PS: Why there was never a designated marksman on an SG team carrying something like the Army's DMR or even an M24 is beyond me! Would have been so cool to see in action! Actually I think there may be an M24 showing up later in the show...

[Rigil Kent]

I'm not an M9 Beretta fan but I'm curious to hear what someone like Rigil thinks of it, an actual serviceman who may've carried it and/or trained with it. I'm told they almost never actually see use because of the heavy reliance on the rifle.

Nope. Never carried it or even fired it. I actually never fired a pistol once during my military career unless you count me going to the range and using my personal Glock-19. The only people who carried M9's in my various units were medics and officers. The rest of us carried M-16s, M-203s, M249 SAWs, or, in my unfortunate case, the -16 and a M47 Dragon antitank missile (Desert Storm; after that, I got bumped to RTO (Radio and Telephone Operator) so I carried my -16 and a PRC-77 radio or a SINCGARS when we got those.)

I've never really taken SG1 seriously when they start doling out the weapons and actually laughed when they started breaking out the P90s as if they were some sort of super-weapon instead of a tanker's weapon. Ditto that with the M249 - I noticed that on the show, that POS never jams like it always did when we used in the field.

Gun guys out there -- you're on an SG team -- wohat would you ask for as your standard loadout?

Difficult to say now since it's been so long since I was active duty. I'd be tempted to go with what I know and request a M4 carbine with a -203 attachment (or maybe that Master Key shotgun thing my buddy who was in the Rangers used), definitely with the SOPMOD on it. Of course, I'd also be tempted to try out the IMI TAR-21 since I'm in love with pretty much anything Israeli. I do tend to agree, though, that something bigger than a 5.56mm round should be used since they needed knockdown power - my ideal 4 man team would probably consist of two heavier weapons (7.62mm model of the FN SCAR, for example) carried by Jack and Teal'c with Sam and Daniel toting 5.56mm weapons. Sidearms would be .40 (probably SIG Sauer P226s because I love that pistol.) And one of them would have to carry a 203 attachment - Carter would be ideal for that with her M4.

[Elessar]

I tend to agree. For a four-man SG-team, M4's could just as well be standard with one carrying something a little heavier -- you had a lot of problems w/ the M249 in the field? I've not heard contrary, I've just not really heard at all. I'd heard stories of the M4 being a bitch with stoppages in hostile environments but not the 249. What about the 240? I got a chance to handle a brand new M240G which was pretty sweet but not fire it. I know it's heavy, but a big guy like Teal'c wouldn't have any problem carrying it. If we expanded to a whole 4-man team I'd probably like to see: M4, M4/203, M240, and then possibly a DMR or M24 or something. For standard loadout, I could see Sig P226's fitting the bill, I just wouldn't personally choose to carry it.

By the way - I neglected to mention this but there's like a handful of episodes, more densely it seemed in seasons 8-10, where there are huge battle sequences where like several SG teams and Jaffe Nation units move against the Goa'uld, or later against the Ori. Not that I liked that particular saga but it saw some "interesting" changes in the weapons loadouts. In one episode, Mitchell is even rolling with a DAO-12, that cylinder-fed shotgun/tear-gas/grenade launcher made in South Africa. There's a dozen or so uses of a bunch of european weapons like the G36E, G36C, I think there's even an MG36, pretty much all in the same scene. In SGA they tended to carry full length M16's more often.

Yeah, I LIKE the P90 but I don't know why it became their standard issue weapon. The 5.7 round doesn't do much for you beyond 200m.

Speaking of the FN SCAR... any time I say "M4 or M4 variant", I generally don't literally mean the M4. There are so many better options available now, even if the Army/Marine Corps hasn't gotten their heads out of their asses about upgrading the arsenal at large yet. I know SOCOM's picked up many different weapons for testing at various times, including the HK 416/417, which is analogous to the FN SCAR-L/H. There was also the XM8/C/LMG system that seemed pretty cool, course nobody ever picked it up, but supposedly it was one hell of a weapons system. Any kind of 2nd generation 5.56 or 6.8 SPC gas piston carbine would be a good idea.

By the way, an option I forgot to mention that might bear consideration -- for close quarters combat, what do you think of the Saiga 12ga? 5, 10, 12 and 25 round 12 gauge magazines are available. The ammunition logistics of carrying shotgun shells aside, I think it'd be a weapon I'd be comfortable carrying if you were, say, storming around a Hatak mothership.

[WarpGirl]

Elessar you crack me up. I mean the only time I ever paid attention to the guns was when Daniel was being all bad*** like the first time he got kicked out of being an "enlightened being" and when they were missing the targets and wasting bullets. Honestly I was more concerned with Sam and Jack and how utterly rediculous Frat Regs are for a Military Operation that did not officially exist. I mean who cares, if the Air Force in general has no clue about the Stargate or SG-1. Compared to Sam/Jack, TnT had a perfect realtionship.

As to the point that their choices were unrealistically narrow heck yes! I think they should have had a big selection. I mean for them its like having enough shoes. But I like Daniel's handguns cause he usually used two, and that was . What kind were they? All I know about guns comes from crime shows and Burn Notice. I mean you're a library, and I'm guessing Rigil is too.

[Elessar]

Elessar you crack me up. I mean the only time I ever paid attention to the guns was when Daniel was being all bad*** like the first time he got kicked out of being an "enlightened being" and when they were missing the targets and wasting bullets. Honestly I was more concerned with Sam and Jack and how utterly rediculous Frat Regs are for a Military Operation that did not officially exist. I mean who cares, if the Air Force in general has no clue about the Stargate or SG-1. Compared to Sam/Jack, TnT had a perfect realtionship.

As to the point that their choices were unrealistically narrow heck yes! I think they should have had a big selection. I mean for them its like having enough shoes. But I like Daniel's handguns cause he usually used two, and that was . What kind were they? All I know about guns comes from crime shows and Burn Notice. I mean you're a library, and I'm guessing Rigil is too.

They typically carried Beretta M9 (also called the (92FS or 92F if it's the civilian variant but as far as I know they're virtually identical). It's just a 9mm pistol, like a 16 or 17 round magazine. It became the standard issue sidearm for all line military forces some time in the 1970's or 80's, replacing the Colt 1911 because the recoil is more manageable and the ammo's lighter to haul. It was a popular police service pistol for awhile and I'm sure it is still in place some places but I think it got too expensive. Most police departments issue Glocks now.

I'm a Sam/Jack shipper as well they actually had a decent few episodes... it's just, whenever they had a great opportunity (the writers) to imply they were together, like when it would've been ok even by AF standards (when he went to Washington or when he retired all together and she went to Atlantis) I think it could've worked. There was actually a deleted scene, btw, from Atlantis, when Teyla and Carter were talking and Carter talks about someone back home who she EXACTLY describes as Jack.

Interestingly, he's showing up in SGU episodes lately... I wonder if they'll insert something there. She could even guest star!

[WarpGirl]

OK I think I know that one. Burn Notice and my cousin who is almost as knowledgable as you are when it comes to weapons talk a lot about Barretas. OK I liked them... Well I liked when Jack and Daniel used them... But I'm a blades girl myself, so I kind of was into Sam's knife skills.

[Rigil Kent]

you had a lot of problems w/ the M249 in the field?

All the time. It was even touchier than the 16s. Maybe we just had crappy SAWs, but in all three of the infantry units I served with, you couldn't get that POS to fire more than 15 rounds before jamming.

I've not heard contrary, I've just not really heard at all. I'd heard stories of the M4 being a bitch with stoppages in hostile environments but not the 249.

We were still using straight-up 16s when I was active, and they were certainly annoying with stoppages and jams (another thing I'd like to see on the various shows, but that's not Hollywood.) Ironically, the M16 I carried in my Germany unit (1/7 Infantry) actually fired better when it was a little dirty. Nobody could quite figure that one out, including the armorer who experimented and found that to be the case. So when we were in the field, I was the only person in the company who had written authorization by the SGT running the arms room to not clean my rifle every day. It was very amusing, actually.

What about the 240?

Only messed with that in Basic. Since my unit was Mechanized Infantry (now phased out, I believe, with all Army grunts trained on the M2 Bradleys), we already had heavy 7.62mm support in the form of the coax machine gun on the Bradleys, so it was decided that we didn't need 240s. I think there might have been just one in the entire company and it was on one of the supply trucks.

If we expanded to a whole 4-man team I'd probably like to see: M4, M4/203, M240, and then possibly a DMR or M24 or something.

I'm not sure if a M24 is actually necessary and would probably just stick with another M4 there. Snipers were actually pretty rare in the units I served with (no surprise, really, since it's hard to sneak up on someone with a 26 ton diesel engine, especially with four to a platoon, 13 to a company, and so on), and while we ostensibly had one trained sniper per platoon, I don't know if we even had any M21s (which is what the Army used instead of the 24) in the company. With SG-1 being more of an advanced "First Contact" team, I'd think having a DMR would be slightly overkill since Jack would honestly be the only person on the team trained to use it correctly and you'd want him in the middle of the crap like a good officer. For an assault team? Absolutely they need a sniper, although I'd be tempted to have the guy use something even bigger, like the Barrett M82. Bet that'd cause a couple of Jaffa to reconsider their plans.

Yeah, I LIKE the P90 but I don't know why it became their standard issue weapon.

Because it's futuristic looking and most viewers wouldn't realize that it's really not the kind of weapon a line infantry guy would carry. Given that SG1 is ostensibly the first contact team, I'm generally okay with them carrying it because it's small and unobtrusive. It's just when they go into a situation knowing that a firefight is waiting that I shake my head. Somebody like Carter or Jackson? Yeah, I could see them carrying it more often because they're basically POGs, but Jack is supposed to be trained as a super-ninja, so he should have carried something to show that.

By the way, an option I forgot to mention that might bear consideration -- for close quarters combat, what do you think of the Saiga 12ga?

Never messed with them, although I have handled a USAS-12 and it was sweet.

Honestly I was more concerned with Sam and Jack and how utterly rediculous Frat Regs are for a Military Operation that did not officially exist. I mean who cares, if the Air Force in general has no clue about the Stargate or SG-1.

It's still the Air Force and he was her direct commanding officer. Just because they were covert doesn't mean the regs go out the window. Those regs are there for a reason and I can think of at least one SG1 episode where the entire mission should have failed because Jack lost his head and wouldn't leave Sam behind as the mission parameters required (but it didn't because they had Script Immunity.) If two officers in this case are involved, it endangers the entire rest of the unit because those two officers are (as human nature dictates) more focused and distracted by each other to the detriment of the unit. What happens if they have a serious argument before going on an op (he left the toilet seat up, she taped over his Simpson's tapes, et. al.)? That's going to seriously negatively impact the mission.

The difference for TnT (even though technically, they were violating all number of regs themselves which is why I maintain that they'd probably keep their relationship a secret) is that they were effectively the same rank and appeared to effectively share the duties as first officer. Not to mention, they were very rarely in a situation where she would have to order him into danger or even to his death, whereas on SG1, they were routinely in combat situations where Jack might need to order Sam to her death to fulfill the mission. Plus, he was one to three ranks higher than her (depending on what she is now - he's got two stars in SGU, I think, and I believe she's still just a bird colonel.) While it was very clearly a means for them to toy with 'will-they-won't-they' long past the expiration date, they actually had a legitimate reason for doing so.

Interestingly, he's showing up in SGU episodes lately... I wonder if they'll insert something there. She could even guest star!

She has guest-starred back in the first episode. She was in command of ship orbiting the Icarus planet, and Jack has referenced her once or thrice in show.

[WarpGirl]

Oh Rigil Jee whiz without the Air Force I wouldn't exist! Thanks grammy and grampy. I'm just trying to point out in a funny way (and obviously failed but what else is new) is that with a show as rediculous as SG-1 (and it is pretty rediculous) that will all of the stuff they butchered with the Air Force stuff. (IAB) come on! That frat regs were not the most stupid thing to throw out. I mean please it's fiction. JAG I understood, they should have ended 4 years before they did, but I got it, frat regs had to be preserved.

Elessar I thought the idea to have a sniper on offworld teams was inspired! I wonder why they didn't do that?

[Rigil Kent]

Oh Rigil Jee whiz without the Air Force I wouldn't exist! Thanks grammy and grampy. I'm just trying to point out in a funny way (and obviously failed but what else is new) is that with a show as rediculous as SG-1 (and it is pretty rediculous) that will all of the stuff they butchered with the Air Force stuff. (IAB) come on! That frat regs were not the most stupid thing to throw out. I mean please it's fiction. JAG I understood, they should have ended 4 years before they did, but I got it, frat regs had to be preserved.

Because A) they needed an excuse to do 'will-they-won't-they' which the frat regs aided with, and B) if they hadn't exercised those regs, the Air Force (which had supported them throughout) would have yanked said support. It's really that simple.

[WarpGirl]

Aye Sir!

[Elessar]

Oh Rigil Jee whiz without the Air Force I wouldn't exist! Thanks grammy and grampy. I'm just trying to point out in a funny way (and obviously failed but what else is new) is that with a show as rediculous as SG-1 (and it is pretty rediculous) that will all of the stuff they butchered with the Air Force stuff. (IAB) come on! That frat regs were not the most stupid thing to throw out. I mean please it's fiction. JAG I understood, they should have ended 4 years before they did, but I got it, frat regs had to be preserved.

Elessar I thought the idea to have a sniper on offworld teams was inspired! I wonder why they didn't do that?

I could see Rigil's point that it wouldn't make sense for SG1 because Jack'd be the only trained expert marksman qualified to use it and he's a little busy commanding the team... But I was referring to other SG teams... and I wouldn't suggest any team just carry an M24 regularly... just when they know they're entering combat. But I'm a big fan of the "guardian angel" concept of overwatch teams being utilized whenever the terrain allows it.

The M82 or M95 are exceptional rifles but the ammo and the rifle are just so heavy. Unless we're talking about HUGELY wide open environments like Abbydos, the .50 would be overkill for the ranges you'd be working with. If we needed a step up over the M24 in .308, I'd be a big fan of the L115 in .338 Lapua or the Cheytac M200 in .408 Cheytac.

[WarpGirl]

Well I think the concept is intriguing.

[Navigator]

OK, the problem with the H&K MP5s and the HK 93 is the fluted chamber. It is a delayed blowback, and if you think the M-16 and its variants with the direct impingement gets dirty, you ain't seen nothing yet. They also get hot quickly. That having been said the MP5 is still a good choice because it seems to really run well with a suppressor.

For open country, I'd recommend either the M110, which is an updated SR-25 in 7.62 that has been adopted by SpecWar or the LMT 7.62 that the Brits just adopted. However, any of the AR based 7.62s would work. They run really well now. A second recommendation would be the M-4 type weapon but in 6.8MM SPC as you can use all the extra stuff but have a cartridge that can actually do something. Also they work better with a short barrel than does the 5.56 version.

I agree with the .338 Lapua for long range but also one of the AR makers (DPMS, I think) has a .300 WSM.

Do not go anywhere near the FN P90. The cartridge does not have any more power than the .22 Hornet.

For sidearms, I also like the SIG, but if you're dealing with the Jaffe, a 10MM Glock may be appropriate. Also the MP5 can be had in that caliber also.

For personal backup, the S&W 640. Only five shots but .357 Magnum can be very reassuring.

[WarpGirl]

Ooooh Ooooh I know what a .357 magnum is!

[Elessar]

I'd agree, but don't you think the FN P90 is still a superior close quarters weapon to the MP5, specifically against armored, but also unarmored, personnel? 9mm Parabellum wouldn't do shit to Jaffe armor if it has any sort of ballistic protection properties at all... 5.7 might actually penetrate it, at least. Against unarmored personnel, I believe the P90 is more inherently accurate and has a higher rate of fire than the MP5 and it definitely has a higher magazine capacity.

I agree for the Glock 20/29 in 10mm.