Article on Fan Fiction from Time Magazine

[justTripn]

For the record, the fact that we don't have slash at this site came from a polling of the original members. We COULD have had slash, and the leadership was open to having slash if the community had wanted it. I just wanted to say that the policy not to have slash was based on majority preferences at the time and should not be construed as some moral statement. Quite the opposite. We got our start at House of Tucker where there was alot of slash, and we loved House of Tucker. OK, back to the topic: reactions to the article.

[marchale]

putaro, thank you for putting a link to that article here and getting this discussion going. This is kind of an odd coincidence for me running into this thread, I just had a discussion with another member here that among other things involved sex in fanfic & between that discussion and reading that article and the comments here regarding it, I think I'm starting to lose my appetite for wanting to read smuttier stories in much the same way that I got turned off from doing nude fakes initially to just wanting to make hopefully sexy fakes now where characters keep their clothes on. Things can still be damn sexy even when they "fade to black" as justTripn put it and as that writer I was talking to mentioned, some writers can make even G or PG rated stories seem pretty hot depending on how gifted the writer might be at handling sex in a story. Yeah, I've sure seen that in stories I've read too. Anyway, I kind of smiled when I heard Triaxiansilk runs a more conservative ship here editorial-wise than at other fanfic sites. (I used to run a yahoogroup for fakers but flushed it down the tubes when too many members started trying to turn it into a porn site instead of a place to discuss art and technical aspects of faking, etc). So yeah, I'm glad to hear its more of an editorially conservative place. If folks don't like that, there's other places they can go for that instead.

Speaking of dislikes though (sort of!). I agree with you 1,000% about slash fanfic, Cogito - it turns me off cold too and I can't see why any female writer would want to waste her time or talent writing stories aimed at a gay male audience (though I know there's plenty of them out there who do even though it makes no sense to me what they see in it). Anyway, I find slash personally offensive to my tastes too and I don't think there's anything at all homo-phobic or anti-gay about saying that; hell, I had a very close friend who was gay and it didn't bother him at all that I wasn't into that sort of thing. Oh well, to each their own, I guess.

But as far as this subject of fair use and borrowing others ideas and picking up on stuff where others left off, etc - I think if it's out there for others to see/read/or watch it should be fair game for anyone else to do their own unique spin on. Hell, we are all (no matter what type of art we are doing) using Star Trek stuff, characters, storylines, etc (so we're all ripping them off too). Personally I'm flattered as hell if someone uses an idea I had to create something of their own with. I know in that one singular story I wrote many years ago, a pretty well known Voyager fanfic writer took my "to hell with this idea of going home, let's keep Voyager in the Delta quadrant" idea I had and used that as a nightmarish scenario Q put them through in her story and I couldn't have been more flattered by that. I think folks should take it as the compliment it is if someone likes something you did well enough to want to see what they can do with it themselves. We don't legally own this stuff anyway, right?

[justTripn]

Why write slash? Well, one legitimate excuse would be that you don't see any official gay couples in Star Trek. They've proved that for 5 series and how many movies now, 10, 11? So if you DO want to see that story line you have to write it yourself--and that is the reason given in the article. We don't see it in our books, movies, whathaveyou, so we write it ourselves. It is an interesting "What if?" It can be as sweet and tame enough to be G-rated, along the lines of: Malcolm asks Trip out on a date; the end. It can be "fade to black" tasteful. Or just as hot as the heterosexual stuff, which we also didn't see onscreen. Let's face it, what we do isn't canon either. We ignored the finale so that Trip and T'Pol could do it on and on and on, or just get married and live happily ever after.

With regard to the ethical questions the article deals with: using other's work. We're in the clear because Star Trek allows (or doesn't disallow) fanfic. In fact Star Trek used to publish a yearly anthology of the best fanfiic: "Strange New Worlds." You don't do that if you are trying to wipe out fanfic. But I try to remember that I am borrowing and credit the writers of the original work, usually in general terms. "Authors's Note: I am forever grateful to the real writers and producers of Star Trek, who gave us these wonderful characters." Alelou for her missing scenes, credits by name the authors of the episodes she uses. I think that is best practice. I posted the article on facebook and one friend made the point that TV shows are already a group project involving hundreds of people, so you have less chance offending someone if you write fanfic for a TV show. TV writers are used to the idea that they write one episode and someone else may do the next episode. It is the writers of novels who sometimes get very touchy about the fanfic and it is deemed uncool to post fanfic for a book whose writer is offended by fanfic. It's best to remember that these writers of books and TV shows are real people, just like us except more successful.

As for borrowing from other fanfic writers. It would be very uncool, though of course not illegal, to finish someone else's fanfic. It's a very small community and I predict BIG trouble if you steal a story without asking within that community. I did crossover into another fanfic once with permission, and that went well. And I have borrowed little details, for instance about Vulcan culture, invented by other authors, and I usually give a shout out to those people, becuase it's fun to do.

[Cogito]

STOP!

Put down the gasoline and the matches and step back!

If you have read the article and want to comment on it, this is the place. If you want to complain about what other people are writing, this is NOT the place.

Thank you!

With respect, I think that a comment about who writes fanfic and why, is on topic in a discussion about an article about who writes fanfic and why.

There are two aspects to my comment. Firstly I just don't understand why there is so much slash fanfic. I don't think it is written by or for gay men and I can't understand why anyone else would find that appealing. (As a straight man I find it rather repugnant. I'm not complaining about people writing it - I just keep my eyes averted and walk past quickly - but I just don't get why they write it.)

Secondly, writing stories in which straight characters are shown as gay seems at best disrespectful to the original authors. In my view these are not Enterprise stories, they are stories about some unrelated characters who happen to share the same names. If I was clever enough to invent a great character like Torok or Jenrali, I would be extremely upset if somebody started writing stories which showed them as substantially different or weaker characters. It's disrespectful. The same holds for the original characters in my opinion.

[putaro]

With respect, I think that a comment about who writes fanfic and why, is on topic in a discussion about an article about who writes fanfic and why.

You weren't writing in a respectful way. What you wrote was:

Beyond the fact that I find them repugnant, I can't help thinking what a waste of talent and effort they represent. I know it's selfish of me, and that writers are always free to write about whatever they like, but there are so few Ent stories that it seems a real shame to have good writers spending time on that sort of distasteful character assassination.

You find slash fics repugnant and you think they are a waste of time and talent by the authors.

How would you feel if someone said that about your time writing ENT fan fiction in general? Or your time spent discussing the subject? It's not a respectful comment, it's a start for a flame war. Put the gasoline away.

It's a valid and large part of the fan fiction base. My understanding is that it's largely written by women for women. You may as well ask why there is so much "lesbian" pornography produced that is mainly consumed by men.

I'm sure that some of the people reading this discussion might be interested in reading or writing slash. There are almost certainly gay/lesbian people on the board. Saying that you find slash or homosexuality "repugnant" is too strong. Let's leave it at the "that's not my cup of tea" level, OK?

As far as whether or not the characters are gay or straight, who knows? One of my good friends from college didn't come out of the closet until...35 or so I think. We don't see enough of their personal lives on screen to really know.

Whether or not it's disrespectful to the original authors, well, some authors think that any fan fiction involving their work is disrespectful. Where should the line be drawn? Is there a need to draw a line? Who draws the line?

[Cogito]

You weren't writing in a respectful way.

How would you feel if someone said that about your time writing ENT fan fiction in general? Or your time spent discussing the subject?

My "with respect" was aimed at you, not people who write fanfic of whatever type. You said my comment was off topic on this thread, and I respectfully disagreed.

Whether it's reasonable to publicly state that I dislike a particular genre of fanfic is debatable. It's a matter of fact that I do dislike it, and in saying that I am expressing my opinion about the genre in general and not making any personal comments about individual authors. It must be obvious that we don't all like the same thing and I hope that people who write or enjoy reading slash stories are not offended that I find them unpleasant. I freely acknowledge that they are just as entitled to their personal preferences as I am to mine.

[Silverbullet]

I don't know. In my youth Slash type of Porn was almost invisible. Being Gay was not a lifestyle one admited to. It was in the shadows. Not to say there wren't places for them to meet just as long as it wasn't shoved in the general publics face. I was raised with a distate for that lifestyle and I still carry that dislike. I like this board and others that ban Slash. But I don't rage against it. Just don't wnat it on my favorite board.

There were other aberations that could only be seen in Porn or below the Mexican border. such as threesomes, Beasialiity. I guess there was a market for that or it would not exist then or now.

I don't know but I suppose many guys when they were kids ran up against a "Chicken Hawk" a man who preyed on young boys. I did and he scared hell out of me. It was in a movie theter. I ran up to the lobby and complained. By the time anyone checked he was gone. That soured me on Gays (queers as we called them) Which is another reason why I don't like slash it remindes me of that.

end of lecture.

SB

[justTripn]

So anyone who was molestesd in a "nice, normal" heterosexual way has a right to conclude that heterosexuals are bad? In fact, in a totally non-tramatic way, perhaps I was. Some creep (but he was a man, wheee! that's good ) tried to touch me when I was about 4 when I found myself alone at the zoo, and I knew something was wrong, and ran and called for my parents. End of story. Think about what you are saying. I do take offense. I have many lesbian friends and they are not dangerous to children. What an awful thing to imply. putaro made a good point.

About 7 percent of the general population is homosexual, and some are not out of the closet. Some of those "undecideds" could be here and could be hurt by what you say. They would realize their friends and peers would be hostile to them if they announced themselves.

As for Star Tek characters, it is true we didn't see enouph on screen to know for each one if he was straight or bi. Lorian could be straight, gay, or bi. How do we know?

[Transwarp]

Lorian could be straight, gay, or bi. How do we know?

He's straight. I know; I read Hopeful Romantic's 'Reconnecting!'

[Silverbullet]

Jt, I was not molested by a hetrosexual in a nice hetrosexual way. I was accosted by a Homosexual who the police called a "chicken Hawk" Those types preyed on young boys. They were a menace because they did upset and scare kids who didn't knw what in hell was going on. If all a sudden a guy flops down next to you and grabs your crotch that will scare you spitless. Especially if you have no idea of what he wants. I am not condemin gays but I am saying that thhis guy did it for me. I didn't want to have anything to do with them. I don't have any gay friends. My brother does though and he is an ex cop who has dealt with "Chicken Hawks" he hates them like poison. He may be more understanding than I am.

But please don't twist my words I didn't say Hetrosexual. I said he was a "chicken Jawk" Same thing as a child Molester.

SB

[putaro]

Oh boy, this thread is going to the dogs. Can we try to make this a welcoming space for everyone?

This does bring up something interesting. I'm not really comfortable with writing about a gay/lesbian relationship but I've been toying with the idea of tossing something in. Now, I think you've convinced me that I should. Science fiction is about pushing the edges of our comfort zones, ideas that unsettle ourselves or others and that make people think.

The Trip and T'Pol relationship is the core of this board. Seemingly safe, heteronormative (isn't that a great word - can you tell that I grew up in San Francisco?), vanilla. But is it?

They're different species. That's kind of a big difference. Not just "races" but actually different species that are not interfertile.

Is this OK because T'Pol looks like a hot Human woman? What about if a crewman falls in love with a Tellarite? How about with a species that alternates genders periodically? A "cogenitor"?

It's interesting that Enterprise shows us people mixing species without any real stigma attached (E2 for example) but showing a gay/lesbian character would have been news. Spock got considerably more prejudice in TOS, probably because of the times. Personally, I'm mixed race, Chinese/Caucasian. Until 1948 my parents' relationship was illegal in California. When I went to school in the early 70's (in San Francisco) I was the only mixed race Asian/White kid around most years. Thinking back, Spock was probably the only mixed race character presented positively anywhere on TV and I think I did identify with him because of that.

When my wife (Japanese) told her parents that she'd fallen in love with an American she got the shock of her life when her parents told her "HELL NO!" and her father said "He's not even white!". The closest he ever came to apologizing was when he told me "That was a lousy picture of you she showed me."

What we like/don't like is our business. I don't want to read about Archer and Trip having sex and I don't want to look at pictures of fat people having sex (gender is irrelevant ). However, I'm not real interested in Archer and T'Pol either and I know many others here aren't either.

We don't have to like everything but let's not make value judgements (you're welcome to make them, but let's not share them here) about what other people are interested in, please?

[justTripn]

Thank you for sharing putaro. Many of the members on this board are interracially married and some are mixed race. My children are biracial so I key into the Spock and especially the Lorian character for that reason. Yes, Spock seems like no big deal these days, but there was joking and bigotry about it at the time. I remember TV Guide reprinted their first review of Star Trek and in introducing Spock it said something like. "Spock is half Human and half Alien (this is why your mother warned you not to marry beneath your station.)" It was very mean spirited.

Silverbullet, I should just ignore your statement but it really REALLY bugs me and I am truely offended. What if I said, "I was once robbed by a person of X race, therefore I no longer care for people of that race. Sorry, it's just my personal preference." Homosexuals are no more likely to be child molesters than heterosexuals and I'm insulted by the implication that they are. The point of my story was that almost the same thing happened to me as happened to you, except it wasn't same-sex. Maybe you should be angry at pedaphiles, not people with one sexual preference or another.

[Transwarp]

Science fiction is about pushing the edges of our comfort zones, ideas that unsettle ourselves or others and that make people think.

I think your definition is a bit too narrow. Science Fiction is about stories taking place within speculative settings. SF *can* be unsettling, and push at the edges and boundaries, but it is not a requirement of the genre.

[marchale]

SB & justTripn, I'm so sorry to hear you two had encounters with predators, that's really a shame - especially when it happens to a young person who doesn't understand whats going on there. I lost my virginity in a date-rape situation when I was 22, but being older, I'm sure that wasn't anywhere near as traumatic as what it was for you's to deal with as children. Anyway, I can still empathize with you on that. I think those who prey on others (especially the innocent) should either be shot or sent to a remote island with other predators who could hopefully teach them how it feels to be victimized themselves.

About slash - I don't think being turned off by it is in any way meant as a slam against gays or against those who like to write or read that type of literature. Thats strictly a matter of personal taste. But in the first place, I can't understand what female slash writers see in writing about male homosexual encounters; and I think they are wasting their time and talent there because it does seem offensive or like character assasination to portray heterosexual characters as being gay when they clearly are not. I mean, if they want to write slash, then why not choose to write about characters (like say Crewman Daniels for instance) who never had their sexual preferences explored on the show and who may or may not be gay for all we know. Thats nothing against gays, slash writers, or whatever a person's tastes are, but to make a straight character gay in a story does a disrespect to the character (for not being portrayed in an honest way) and seems like the writer could find a better use for their talent. Or if they are dead set on focusing on a certain straight character, then why not give him a counterpart in an AU story who happens to be gay? To change a character's sexual preferences seems like a cheap shot or degrading to that character, thats what I find offensive about it - aside from the fact that it really turns me off as far as my own tastes are concerned, like it's hitting below the belt there or a disrespectful thing to be engaged in doing. I avoid stories where I think the characters as well as the writer themselves are being degraded by it. (But hey, that's just strictly my opinion - no offense to those who either like slash or disagree with me about that, to each their own.)

About using others works, yeah, you're right, justTripn, it wouldn't be fair to use the work of another writer if that author doesn't want their work continued by others into fanfic - though I think thats a pretty mean spirited or selfish way for some of these famous authors to feel about their works, to not want their fans to see what they can do with those characters. I mean, it's not like fanfic writers profit from it or it in any way harms the writer who created it. And I do think it's just showing good manners to ask a writer's permission to use their work as the foundation in their 'spin-off'- or to at least give them credit if you can't contact them (like folks do when giving disclaimers about Paramount owning Star Trek, etc). Hell, I even gave permission to and got an acknowledgement in her story from that writer who used my idea - and that was just an idea she put an entirely different type of a spin on (I was just avoiding what I thought could be a potential "what if?" type of disaster, but she laid out my potential disaster theory as a full blown nightmare complete with executions, imprisonments, etc in her story); both stories were based on my theory, but they really didn't have anything to do with each other and while I was flattered by it, I don't think she even needed my permission or to give me an acknowledgement for as much of a different type of a spin as she put on it, I mean, I wouldn't have been at all offended by it if she hadn't contacted me about it. And too, as far as borrowing storylines - well, I think its okay if you take an idea and run in a different direction with it to make it a totally unique creation (like that writer did with my theory), or to pick up on an abandoned storyline the original author isn't going to pursue, like I left my story hanging with them going to permanently park Voyager on a planet in the Delta quadrant and said "to be continued..." so if someone else wants to pick it up from there, be my guest, I'm not going to write it a sequel after all these years. (writing that story not only is a fine example of why I should not try writing - it left me in awe of and feeling totally starstruck by those of you who do write fanfic - you guys seem like geniuses and rock stars to me ).

But in any case, I don't think plagerism is ever right, or to use a storyline someone is currently working on (as in a novel it might take them a long time to complete) unless you can so dramatically go in a different direction with it to make it unique. But the reason I say that is because there's alot of stuff out there numerous fans are writing similar stories about (like say Trip and T'Pol get married) - well, maybe 100 people have done that type of a story, but as long as you make your story unique, I think its okay to pursue stories in a similar vein or to borrow ideas if you put an entirely different kind of spin on it. (I was lucky being able to tread into virgin territory by doing something that was considered blasphemy in Voyager fanfic and luckily I was the first person to write about what I seen was a serious flaw in the idea of them going home that nobody else had previously dealt with or considered before then - but when alot of folks share similar tastes and want similar things, there's bound to be some borrowing there and thats fine, I think - as long as you can do it in a way that makes it uniquely yours, thats all I meant by borrowing being okay in my opinion. Its like that with faking in a way too, I can't accuse another faker of stealing my idea if they want to do sexy fakes of a character, I don't own that character and I certainly can't tell others what they can do or accuse them of stealing there - although if seeing my work can interest another faker into creating their own work, I feel very flattered by it.

Okay, I'm going to shut up about these subjects here and get back to work on those fakes. (its so much fun talking with you's here, I tend to lose track of time and get carried away with it to the extent I tend to ignore other stuff I should be doing, Sorry about that. Bye!)

[justTripn]

No one feel sorry for me. I was barely touched because I ran away and called for my parents. I suffered zero negative effects. But it proves there are predators out there. Silverbullet said he ran into a "chicken hawk" and that "soured him on gays." This implies that it was being gay that caused him to prey on you. This is a defamation of a whole group of innocent people who don't need ugly rumors spread about them. If you are soured on a whole group of people, that's between you and your psychiatrist. You should not be announcing it on this board.

I agree with putaro that science fiction is very often about pushing the boundaries and exploring topics that are harder to explore in other genres. And sometimes you use it for good old fashioned drama/adventure in a futuristic or space-based setting. But I am happiest when both these si fi story functions are taking place at the same time.