Question about interaction within the community

[Distracted]

Insults are never deserved if the person you're insulting did not intend to give offense, Asso. Fanfic writers write their own visions, and we are fortunate that they choose to share them with us. They don't write to offend you personally. Insulting them personally is unjustified and childish. Insults are detrimental to useful communication and completely unjustified if the person you're insulting isn't deliberately trying to offend you. They serve no purpose that a more polite verbal exchange cannot serve. And even if someone IS deliberately trying to offend, insulting them back just puts fuel on the fire. Adults don't throw blatant insults at each other in polite society. That's what the social niceties are for. Behaving otherwise is trolling, and trolling is specifically against the rules of this site.

[WarpGirl]

Ok, let me rephrase that dear. Do I have the right to write a strongly-worded comment to a story that contains rape and is pubilshed as PG-13 with no prior indication that such (more than potentially offensive) contents are present?

You have the right to say, "this story needs a warning! this story should be rated M or NC-17!" You have the right to say you find the topic of rape and sexual assults are offensive. You have the right to say such stories are not stories you enjoy.

You do not have the right to: Curse, say that you got drunk after you read it, or disparage an author's character. Your "strong words" are cruel, usually profane, and at times slanderous. That is not acceptable.

[Kotik]

That's what the social niceties are for. Behaving otherwise is trolling, and trolling is specifically against the rules of this site.

That's what I'm trying to find out here, Dis. Where is the line? Is calling a plot-element or character development 'ridiculous' still within the rules? Is saying 'you portrait character x grossly OOC - as totally dumb' still acceptable? I admit using fecial euphemisms is wrong, but if I think that some plot elements are deeply disturbing, am I allowed to express it as such?

[justTripn]

This is an ongoing community. I never expected 7 years ago how ongoing it would be. You can respectfully object to a story or story element. I have done that on numerous occasions. But keep in mind that you will likely be interacting with that person--yes PERSON, not disembodied screenname--again in the future. Keep in mind that you yourself will develop a reputation within the community. Community is the key word here.

Now I see a new post. We are not drawing these exact lines so that someone can walk right up to the boundaries of them or go looking for contradictions in the implementation of policy. The policy is: We are all adults in a community. Let's behave like adults in a community and be considerate.

[Asso]

Insults are never deserved if the person you're insulting did not intend to give offense, Asso. Fanfic writers write their own visions, and we are fortunate that they choose to share them with us. They don't write to offend you personally. Insulting them personally is unjustified and childish. Insults are detrimental to useful communication and completely unjustified if the person you're insulting isn't deliberately trying to offend you. They serve no purpose that a more polite verbal exchange cannot serve. And even if someone IS deliberately trying to offend, insulting them back just puts fuel on the fire. Adults don't throw blatant insults at each other in polite society. That's what the social niceties are for. Behaving otherwise is trolling, and trolling is specifically against the rules of this site.

So we're to the point. At the end you said it.
Okay, Distracted, okay.
May it be the way you want.
After all, what other way is there? I said what I think, and from it I don't depart, regardless of what you may think and, above all, regardless of anything else.
And I am sure you have understood.

[Distracted]

Kotik, I'd avoid terms like "stupid" and "ridiculous". They're subjective and insulting. To be constructive you've got to tell the author WHY you think the plot element doesn't make sense. You're right, though. It could be a vocabulary issue for you. Here are some more polite terms you might use if you think something is stupid.

nonsensical
confusing
poorly thought-out
difficult to justify based on what we've seen on screen

If something is upsetting to you, you could use these:

emotionally disturbing
unecessarily offensive

Or you could just stop reading and refrain from commenting. But I'm glad you've brought this issue up so that it could get clarified.

[WarpGirl]

You do not have the right to: Curse, say that you got drunk after you read it, or disparage an author's character.

Also calling the story trash, a waste of time, ect. Is not a good idea. It's a bad idea to tell other people not to read the story.

Again KINDNESS is important. Just because a person read a story they didn't like does not give anyone the right to be insulting or mean spirited.

[Kotik]

You do not have the right to: Curse, say that you got drunk after you read it, or disparage an author's character. Your "strong words" are cruel, usually profane, and at times slanderous. That is not acceptable.

You are totally correct on this one, dear, I didn't say my words are always correct. But I would like to point at something here. You do not know, who your audience is. There are authors, who know what they're doing. Our dear Alelou labeled her "Commander Tucker proposes" story as an angst-o-rama, so I never even went near it, hence she never got an abusive comment for it. But an author, who writes mature content without a label saying so exposes himself to the danger, because, once I've unexpectedly have read the passage, I cannot make it unseen - my mental cinema is running a horror-movie. I've only lived with a rape victim, how must it be for someone, who has actually endured it him/her-self? I'm not trying to defend abusive comments unconditionally, but if you do not warn your readers of potentially offending content, the might have it coming your way.

[WarpGirl]

Then the appropriate comment is to politely ask the author or the archivist to put a Warning lable on it. Cursing and ranting just makes the situation so much worse.

[Kotik]

Or you could just stop reading and refrain from commenting. But I'm glad you've brought this issue up so that it could get clarified.

Thanx, but as I wrote in my reply to WG. If you open a PG-13 story, you don't expect someone to be physically violated, so once you've read some passage you unfortunately cannot make it unseen in your head and refraining from commenting or venting your hurt, especially if you have real-life experience with it is immensely difficult.

[WarpGirl]

Difficult but not impossible. Turn off your computer, go for a walk, call a friend, do something else! Listen to some music, do some house chores. Something that changes your frame of mind.

[marchale]

Yeah, I agree with what seems to be the general concensus here that remarks should be kept civil and polite even if you don't like something; and that any negative criticism you have to offer should be confined to the work itself, (not the creator of it) and that if you don't care for something, I think it's only fair to offer an explaination of why you feel that way about it. The thing is, no matter how you feel towards any given work - be it a fanfic story, a music video, an artwork creation, or whatever - someone put forth the time and effort to create it and is being kind enough to share it with others - and that should be respected regardless of your opinion.

And if you don't care for something, maybe there's a nice way you could offer some constructive criticism on it without hurting a person's feelings or making them feel uncomfortable about it. Like that old saying goes, you can attract alot more bees with honey than you can with vinegar. I know that I for one really do welcome and appreciate all the constructive criticism I can get on my fakes (and love it when I can get it too!) because it helps me to learn and grow and hopefully I can use those helpful suggestions others have to offer to do better work in the future. Even if I may not agree with someone else's opinion, I still very much want to hear any so called "negative comments" because that's still 'food for thought' from another perspective - and who knows, they might have a valid point on something I either overlooked or hadn't considered previously.

To cite a recent example of what I mean there, I'm really grateful to Cogito for asking me to do more T'Pol fakes (and to make them sexy) and also do more of Trip and T'Pol together. He had a very valid point on both items there. In my Trip obsessed brain, I hadn't realized how focusing the vast majority of my effort on Trip wasn't really being fair to the guys here who'd prefer to see more T'Pol fakes, and only having a single "Trip and T'Pol together" type of fake (which wasn't even in the least bit romantic) was something I sorely needed to focus alot more attention on as well too. (BTW, I am working on that, I've got hundreds of couples pics now to choose from to try to match head shots up with), but if he hadn't nicely pointed that out to me, God only knows how long it might have taken that to dawn on me, if it ever would've with my Trip obsessed brain

Anyway, I think nicely pointing out things to a person in terms of helpful criticism can be very beneficial if you would like to try to see them say "head in a different direction in the future" in their works - they may or may not follow your advice (like I think my mom was dead wrong about how I should just stick to doing G rated fakes when I prefer doing more R rated ones). But if you can say things in a nice way a person wouldn't be offended by, who knows - you might end up making a friend who might follow your advice in future creations of theirs instead of just pissing someone off and ruining their day. Lord knows, feedback is what we're all hungering for and live to get with our works (and as a relative "newbie" here, I'm trying hard to learn from it besides!), but just try to keep in mind before you give feedback "is this the sort of feedback I'd like to get on my work?" and be considerate towards others in giving any criticism if you want to try to influence them in hopefully creating works you'd prefer to see in the future.

(BTW, I realize this is a discussion on fanfic here (although I think it could apply to any art form people create) and I think the way Cogito very nicely asked me for what he wanted to see in the future not only endeared me to him for his feedback and made me think he was a real class act as a gentleman to be so nice about it, but I think gently trying to steer someone in the direction you'd like to see them go in their future creations sure beats the hell out of hearing something like say "Oh God, not another one of your damn Trip fakes again, why are you being so unfair to folks who want more T'Pol and Trip and T'Pol together?" (If you can handle your complaints in a nice and classy way like Cogito did with me, you might just influence that author in doing what you'd rather see in the future. And really, isn't trying to help a person create better works in the future one of the points behind giving them feedback? Or at least with authors you think could benefit from your great advice?)

[WarpGirl]

Another important thing to remember is that the number of people who post a story, art, whatever has sat down at their PC and said: "Let's see how many people I can offend" granted I'm sure there are a few out there. HOWEVER, they are negligable. Think 1 out of every 100,000,000 type odds probably higher. So does it make sense to hurl insults?

Yes I am aware that language differences come into play like when I used the word fanboy, but remember how that turned out? Instead of jumping the gun and immediately assuming that someone is being offensive, slow down, ASK for clarification, especially if the author has a different native language.

There's an old saying never assume it makes an ass out of you and me. Now we're ALL guilty of that. But for story commenting purposes it's applicable. Sometimes if something happens in a chapter or chapters that you don't like It might be better to hold off until the story is FINISHED before commenting. You taught me that Kotik.

[Silverbullet]

Kotik, I too hate stories that contain Rape or forced intercourse (same as rape in my book) I too have good reason to hate those things. Like you I have witnessed those things and worse.

So, I like a gentle story where TnT are a couple or will be a couple without the leering Angst of Rape real or implied.

I am with you Kotik

SB

[WarpGirl]

But that isn't the point of this discussion. Nobody is saying you can't object to stories you don't like or find offensive. The issue is HOW. Viciously attacking authors, calling the stories themselves trash, questioning motives... All of this is improper behavior. So let's help each other leave constructive and RESPECTFUL comments.

Let me put it this way, leaving a comment that says "this story is trash, and the author loves abusing our favorite characters" is not an appropriate comment.

But leaving a comment that says "Thank you for your effort, but I find stories where characters are abused to be disturbing. I hope to read your work when it deals with a less volitile subject. Perhaps putting a warning on this story would be a good idea so that others do not accidently stumble on to such material would be helpful to your audience." Is fair, respectful, and it makes your point.