Just an idle thought

[blacknblue]

I am working out some fight scenes, and happened to remember something. Remember a while back we had some debates about Human vs. Vulcan fights and how the Vulcans would have the edge because fo their strength? Well, has anyone ever seen a cowboy throw a steer? Ever seen a cowboy grab half a ton of raging muscle by the horns and neatly flip it over on its back without breaking a sweat?

I once watched my father's brother do that, but he used a rope. He had a wild cow that was giving him trouble. A Charlaigne (? is that the right spelling Mitchell?), which is a feisty breed anyway. He had a rope around the thing's horns. I, being young and ignorant, stood back and watched in disbelief as he repeatedly braced himself and, just as the crazy critter was getting ready to sink those horns through him, he gave the rope a yank at precisely the right moment and spun her onto her back. He kept doing it until the fool animal gave up and settled down.

Brute strength is not the bottom line. Once again, "It ain't what you got, it's how well you can use it."

Granted, facing an intelligent being would be different than wrestling with a dumb animal, but the principle is the same. You have to know what you are doing. Anybody who has ever watched a few bar fights knows size and strength won't always win the day. I know a guy I used to work with, a real asshole. Big as a horse, with a mouth the size of Lake Superior. Arrogant S.O.B. that everyone despised. One day he got into a minor fender bender and both drivers pulled off to talk about the incident. The other driver was a dinky little runt about twice the big fart's age, so he figured he was safe. He started copping an attitude and really laid it on the little old man. Finally the little old man had enough and climbed him like a tree. From eyewitness accounts by my co-workers, the runt ended up sitting on the big guy's chest and pounding his head into the ground like a jackhammer for about five minutes, while all his (our) co-workers stood back and laughed at his repeated pleas for help.

You have to know what you are doing. There is also the fact that, as somebody said, "Surprise trumps skill, proximity and speed trump strength."

Just a thought. I haven't babbled for a while and the urge hit me. Carry on folks.

[CX]

I think unless the Vulcan was in pon farr that the Vulcan would still have the edge because of their mental discipline. The reason steers can be thrown like that is because their own strength and momentum are used against them because they'll just charge right at someone without thinking, since they are just dumb animals after all. You might be able to piss off a Vulcan that's in pon farr and get him to just charge at you, but I'm thinking any other Vulcan wouldn't be dumb enough to do that.

[Linda]

BnB, I think training over brawn will do it every time! But Vulcans have their own martial arts training, so a trained Vulcan against a trained Human might go either way, despite the strength advantage, to my way of thinking.

Anyway, an example. I am only 5'3" and weigh about 140 lbs. A couple of years ago, thisi guy who was definitely a head taller than me and broader, probably stronger, tried to come up behind me and take my purse. The purse had a long strap and I hung onto the strap. That slow motion thing is no illusion. Everything did go into slow motion for me. Now I had less than a year of judo training a few years before this incident. All I remembered from that was the off-balancing principle. So I kept yanking on that purse strap this way and that, making him trip to one side, then the other. He finally let go and ran away. I was lucky. If he had decided to hit me instead of tug-of-war over the purse, he would have had the purse. So I think just knowing how to use someone's weight against them is a technique common in martial arts? Anyway, it does work, even for a minimally trained person with the right frame of mind. And my mind was saying "like hell you are getting my purse!" But I don't think I will go on to cow throwing. I do agree that weight or strength is not necessarily an advantage when your own weight can be used against you, LOL.

[hth2k]

The line I like is;
Old age and treachery beats youth and enthusiasm every time.

HtH

[Elessar]

"Marines I see as two breeds, Rottweilers or Dobermans, because Marines come in two varieties, big and mean, or skinny and mean. They're aggressive on the attack and tenacious on defense. They've got really short hair and they always go for the throat."

[Mitchell]

^^ Guess that would make SEALs comparable to what, a bordercollie. Or more like a Timber Wolf. either way they would be a dog with a brain atleast.


"Charlaigne" I havent a clue. Im a Farmer, not a Cowboy.
I dont even like horses all that much. An Ive used a lassoe a total of 2 times in my life.

But yeah an adult male, an some women can bring down a full grown Holstien cow. As long as you can hold on to, an manage to twist their head around long enough to drop them that is. A full grown 1 ton Bull, you would have to be insane to even try it. Ive seen a holstien bull lift a shit spreader off the ground with its head. Not to mention also bust steel pipes out of concreat. brains combined with your physical strenght will only go so far, then your only answer is fire power.


But all this dont compare. Since a Vulcan sure the hell isnt anywhere as stupid as a cow or steer. But yeah brute force isnt everything. But While Vulcan's are stronger, an more logical minded then us Humans. I cant help but think that not only are we Humans able to think quicker, but I think we should have better reflexes. Just look at our two differing worlds. Whose gona have the quicker reflexes. A Vulcan on their Native Dessert world running from a Lamate (spellin). Or a Human Running through the forrests of say North America, trying to out manuvour a Moutain lion. My Money would be on the Human havin the quicker reflexes.

Even if Trek says otherwise.


But If were talkin Trained special ops types of guys from both worlds, their obvioulsy both if they have brains in their heads, are gona depend on their strengths to beat the other.

But their not only going to need to know their own advantages an limiations. But also their enemies advantages, an limitations as well.

If we were to say Trip a trained Starfleet officer who has at the very least taken basic hand to hand combat training, were to fight some one like Koss a Vulcan civilian who more then likely hasnt recieved much of any training. Id bet on Trip. Since not only has he had training, but he has also had combat experance. Experance is always worth more then anything else in combat.

[JadziaKathryn]

My money's on the Vulcan, because of the nerve pinch. Sure, you have to get close enough and, presumably, a good angle, but I bet they get trained for that too. Unless, of course, you get an out of shape inexperienced Vulcan. Who would probably have me flat in thirty seconds, but some people could beat.

[TPoptarts]

Heh. I once beat up that guy who was like 1.5' taller than me and literally over twice my weight. But I think in a human vs. Vulcan fight a well trained pon farr-free Vulcan would have the edge, like after all Vulcans are smarter and have better self control than some horny-assed predator.

[hth2k]

Many variables to consider. Out in the open desert during the day a Human would be toast most likely in short order regardless of training.

Night time makes a difference. Maybe making things more even.

Did T'Pol or some other Vulcan give Trip any specialized training? If so that may make much more difference.

Technology also makes a much greater difference. Do the Vulcans have night vision or scanning technology? What about weapons?

Trip has basic self defence and little else from my understanding. I would think a trained Vulcan should easily be able to deal with him during the day if they catch him out in the open. His being a non-native is a large handicap.

HtH

[Hondafan]

Ya know I am a huge fan of Trip but lets face it he is a lover not a fighter. The only way trip could take a vulcan would be if they were in the water, otherwise not a chance.

[TPoptarts]

This thread kinda reminds me something that happened to me at school once well it was like after school and everyone was waiting for the bus and a bunch of school bullies were just like walking around pushing random people to the road. And of course they got to me (AKA shy quiet scrawny little kid that makes the perfect bully target practice) and pushed me to the road too. And then I get back on the sidewalk and I look at the particular boy who pushed me like , then I raise my left leg and kick him square in the chest. And the thing is I swear I barely even touched him like seriously I just gave him a little push with the tip of my toes, but I guess it was enough to knock him like totally off balance that boy just fell back on a bunch of his bully friends, and they all fell down in a pile it was hilarious it was like a cartoon or something, then they're like struggling back up, and that boy screams "get me away from this ninja!!!"

[Rigil Kent]

"Stupid Vulcan. Brought a lirpa to a phaser fight."

[evcake]

Ninja T'Poptarts! I hate bullies, and they abound.
Hey! I've been promoted!