Arranged marriages and Vulcan arranged marriages

[Aquarius]

Read the entire scene. The conversation is about T'Les's retirement up to that point. Koss isn't even mentioned until after that line. Contextually, she's talking about the retirement.

[Vulcan - T'Pol's family home]

(the sky is red, and so is the rock as T'Pol opens the door and they go into a courtyard with oriental overtones including a gnarled small tree and a water feature of a giant urn with trickling water)
TUCKER: What about that volcano we saw on the way down, Mount Tar'ana?
T'POL: Tar'hana.
TUCKER: It still active?
T'POL: There are frequent eruptions. We can schedule a tour of the crater, if you're interested.
TUCKER: Volcanoes, ancient ruins, fire plains. I'm not sure where to start. So, this is where you grew up. It's not like I imagined.
T'POL: Meaning?
TUCKER: Well, it's beautiful.
T'POL: Vulcans appreciate beauty.
TUCKER: Well, I had no doubt about that. You always were a snazzy dresser.
T'POL: Commander Tucker, I suggest
T'LES: You didn't tell me you were bringing a guest.
T'POL: Mother, you're home.
T'LES: Obviously. It's agreeable to see you. You appear well.
TUCKER: I'm Charles Tucker. Pleased to meet you, ma'am.
(he manages the v-salute, and she responds)
T'LES: (to T'Pol, in Vulcan) Why is he here?
T'POL: (in Vulcan) Commander Tucker is my colleague. He wanted to visit Vulcan.
T'LES: (in Vulcan) This is the first time you've brought a colleague home with you.
T'LES: You both must be very tired after your journey.
(she leads the way into the living room)
T'LES: The guest room is on the south end of the house. (Trip leaves them)
T'POL: It's not yet midday. Why aren't you at the Science Academy?
T'LES: I'm no longer an instructor there. I wrote you a letter. Didn't Starfleet transmit it to your ship?
T'POL: We had communication difficulties in the Expanse.
T'LES: I don't know why you're surprised. This was planned years ago. There's more to life than one's profession. Perhaps you'll learn that one day. It seems that I'm not the only one who knew you were coming. You received this yesterday.
(she hands over a letter)
T'POL: It's from Koss.
T'LES: Did you believe he had forgotten you? You're going to respond.
T'POL: I have nothing to say to Koss.
T'LES: He's your fiancé.
T'POL: Former fiancé.
T'LES: That is a matter for debate. It would be wise for you to speak with him.

[Silverbullet]

There is that Letter again. T'Pol sems surprised that it is from Koss. She obviously did not think that Koss knew she was coming back. So who told him? T'Les askes her if she is going to respond and T'Pol says that she has nothing to say to Koss and her Mother says she should meet with him. sure sounds like Mama is trying to push T'Pol towards Koss. Even when she says he is your Fiance and T'Pol says "former Fiance" T'Les says that is open to debate. T'Les is acting like T'Pol is wrong but T'Pol is an adult. T'Les should take that in to consideration but doesn't like she is. That letter seems to set the tone for the Episode. T'Pol not wantingg Koss and Mama insisting on T'Pol renewing the Engagement. T'Pol finally giving in and marrying Koss although she is coerced in to it. If t'Pol did not let Koss know she was coming back why didn't she say something to T'Les unless she picked up that T'Les knew more that she let on and didn't know how to handle it.

[Silverbullet]

Double post.

Please treat this as an edit to my last post on the Subject of P'Jem

The Priests did not act alone. they obviouusly knew and approved the listening post. But they could not have built it or provided the equipment that had to come from somewhere and the most logical coice is the VHC. The VHC would need the permission of the High Council an the Highest Authority in the Vulcan Chuurch or whatever organization the Priests belonged to. So, the Vulcans did NOT feell that it was wrong or dishnorable to put in a listening post in the Monestary. expedient, smart, needed for the defense line of Vulcn but not wrong or dishonorable for that reason. T'Pol as a logical being should have realized that when she saw the Vault and the equipment. She should have questioned why the Priests knew and lied about the Listening Post. she would have realized that it was the doing of the Vulcan Government, the VHC and the highest levels of the Church. For her that would mean that her Government, church and people approved this and handing over the evidence would be going against that. Archer was applying human Morals to the situation nd not thinking or he would have realized the same thing.

In Shadows of P'Jem at no time does Archer say he ordered T'Pol to take the scans and then hand the evidence to Shran. Closest he comes to that is to say "they think we did it." Shran is the only one who acknowledges it was Archer who made it possible for him to destroy the Monestary by saying he could not sleep at night because he owed Archer for that. Shran and by extension the Andorians broke a treaty of Tau Ceti so it seems that they can break a treaty when it suits them. No moral high ground for the Andorians.

At the end when the Captain of the Vulcan ship wants to take T'Pol back to Vulcan because the Vulcans believe she wwas responsible for the destruction of the Monestary Archr still does not say her ordered her to give Shran the evidence instead he says that she should have a second chance. He is in effect saying she is guilty of the destruction.

[Aquarius]

WG--I read your story, and as I started to formulate a response, I realized most of my comments pertained to the issue of Vulcan arranged marriage and why I feel it's more of a *forced* marriage. Your piece helped me to put a finer point on why I will never agree that one partner's imminent death should compel the other partner to give up his or her right of self-determination over their own body and force them into a sexual situation or a union they do not wish.

Using your line of reasoning--that a woman. should be obligated to satisfy her betrothed's pon farr--then that's the same as saying someone should be able to show up at your house and demand that you give up a kidney--Right Now!--because someone else will die and they need it and you have two. You may voluntarily give one up for a friend or a relative, but what about someone you barely know, and because someone else is forcing you? Sorry, but that wouldn't ever fly in a free society. And sex is no different. A violation is still a violation, whether it's a sex organ or a kidney.

[honeybee]

Haven't read the story, but women have been oppressed for thousands of years specifically with the idea that their bodies don't belong to them. Their husbands/fathers "owned" them and they existed for the sole purpose of baby-making or sexually satisfying men. Part of the argument was that they had no right to their bodies because the survival of the species was at stake. This is BS for so many reasons. First of all, there are plenty of women who choose to have sex and choose to have babies - and enjoy the experience. Why should a woman who doesn't choose that - either with a specific person or just in general - be forced, coerced or even expected to do so? And shouldn't a civilized, logical society develop some other way than forcing a someone? And wouldn't a man in a civilized society not want to force a woman, wouldn't he rather survive through the option of finding a woman who wants to mate with him?

I can't imagine the horror a Vulcan would experience upon coming to from his or her pon farr and remembering/discovering he or she committed rape to survive. T'Pol certainly seemed horrified that she might have assaulted Phlox or Malcolm in Bounty. It seems logical that Vulcans would develop some out that didn't involve violence and bodily harm.

My feelings about this also colored why I continue to side with Trip over the Cogenitor issue. A civilized, warp-capable society shouldn't have to oppress its third gender. If "it" is so important, they should honor, respect and care for the cogenitors so that they will choose to help their species survive. The Cogenitors, as far as I could see, were of paramount value to the society and should have been treated as such, instead of beasts. If given respect and choice, I could see the vast majority of them choosing to help people have babies - and then the few who don't - well, there should be an out.

Again, my guess is that most Vulcan couples tow the party line. But the few who don't have a right to control and agency over their own bodies. And Vulcans in pon farr have the right to survive without society compelling them to violence in order to survive.

[aadarshinah]

Again, my guess is that most Vulcan couples tow the party line. But the few who don't have a right to control and agency over their own bodies. And Vulcans in pon farr have the right to survive without society compelling them to violence in order to survive.

Most Vulcans, though, are probably logical enough to get the wedding/marriage/mate thing sorted out before their pon farr. I'm finding myself more and more of the opinion that, had Spock not been in the throws of the blood fever at the time of his wedding, T'Pring would have had more options than the kal-if-fee. Perhaps some that did not involve violence or rape.

[honeybee]

I agree with you - Spock being away all the time and in denial about going into pon farr - probably brought this situation to its ugly end. Officially, the Kal-if-fee may be the only way, but at least in T'Pol's era - engagements could be broken/marriages dissolved. Why T'Pring didn't speak up when she took a lover - possibly bonding with him - is a mystery. Perhaps she had a good reason or perhaps she wanted Spock dead. But I am certain that "outs" must exist without either party being forced - even if they were under the table. CW's stories certainly deal with that.

Aquarius, there was a great story in the New Yorker a few years back about a guy who gave his kidney away to a stranger and who earnestly believes if you don't give away your kidney, you're a murderer because someone will die without it. He thinks that it should be the law that people with healthy kidneys give them up. Everyone seemed to disagree with him in the story, arguing that body autonomy is key. He had the right to do what he did, but society should not be compelled to force anyone to do what he did.

Here's an abstract of the story:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/0 ... act_parker

[Transwarp]

He thinks that it should be the law that people with healthy kidneys give them up. Everyone seemed to disagree with him in the story

I would certainly hope everyone disagrees! If I give up my kidney, it's a noble thing. If I force you to give up yours, it's not.

[Alelou]

Giving your kidney to a stranger evokes a lot of issues for people -- here's another really interesting article about that:
http://theweek.com/article/index/104040 ... om-the-gut

[honeybee]

I would certainly hope everyone disagrees! If I give up my kidney, it's a noble thing. If I force you to give up yours, it's not.

And I hope, like Aquarius, most people would agree if I have sex with someone to save their life, it's a noble, wonderful thing. If that person forces me or the law forces me under threat, it's not noble for anyone.

And if I choose to have sex with someone to save their life, and I happen to be committed by marriage or even by heart to someone else, I would hope that it wouldn't even be necessary to forgive let alone judge me. This is why I think that when it comes to pon farr, Vulcans would probably not be all that attached to fidelity in the way humans are.

[justTripn]

Belatedly, I read CrystalWolf's story about Vulcan preistesses and male pon farr. Good job. It was already my understanding that that was how things worked because of stories Linda has written. (And Linda is of course a Vulcan posing as a Human, so her word is like canon.) Anyway . . .

Here is an article on kidney donations that I actually helped edit! It's by a Nobel-prize winning economist!

http://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi= ... jep.21.3.3

The bottom line is the authors' advocate legalizing payments for kidneys:

"Adding these components gives a total expected cost to donors of $15,200.Relative to the number of persons who need a kidney transplant, a very large supply of live kidney donors would be available at about $15,200 per donor. . . . Thus, our rough estimate of the total cost of paying the donor is $37,600. The average cost of a liver transplant is about $335,000 in the United States (Ortner, 2005). So our estimated required compensation for live liver donors would add 11.2 percent to total cost."

Skimming the paper (Table 3), I think this measure would about double the number of transplants done, and these transplants would be done much sooner, before the patient had waited years in a long line with their health deteriorating.

The ethical discussion is on page 21 and 22 under the heading "Criticisms and Evaluation of Monetary Incentives"

Oh! And, I'm all for it!!!

[justTripn]

Giving your kidney to a stranger evokes a lot of issues for people -- here's another really interesting article about that:
http://theweek.com/article/index/104040 ... om-the-gut

Yes, that is very interesting. Personally, I feel like it's great for someone to give up a kidney to a stranger. I have this weird feeling that I can't because then what if someone I really know needs mine? Also there would be less weird "eternal gratitude" issues if the donor was compensated $15,000. There would be less "feeling used" issues. There would be less of a burden of feeling, If I don't donate, nobody will and the patient will die. Because with payments, there will be a much larger supply of kidneys for transplant.

[Aquarius]

Voluntary donations are one thing...much like the pon farr priestess scenario.

Financial compensation for the use of your organ? Pon farr relieving prostitutes no longer sound so distasteful or immoral.

Forcing someone to give up what's rightfully theirs? Not cool under any circumstances, regardless of where it's located on the body.

[Rigil Kent]

It's not a "donation" if its being mandated.

Which is why I'm pretty much against any sort of redistribution (economic, social, or physical.) Nobody but me has the right (and duty) to determine what's best for me or my life. Will some people die because of this? Absolutely, but people die all the time so I feel no guilt over that fact. It really goes to the question of when communal needs infringe up individual rights; yeah, I know the whole needs of the many thing, but honestly, how much evil has been perpetrated over the centuries using a similar excuse? Sometimes, as Kirk rightfully pointed out,sometimes the needs of the one are more important.

I like the idea of the pon farr priestesses - I envision them as sort of a Vulcan equivalent to the Companions of Firefly, albeit perceived as more of social or medical workers than businesswomen of any sort. It's a calling for them. Or something.

[honeybee]

That was why I objected to the characterization of priestesses as prostitutes or courtesans of any kind, since Vulcan most certainly not a capitalistic society and no money would be exchanged with the priestess, nor would her comfort/security be determined by whether or not she took on any client. I would assume Vulcan works on some sort of a communal barter system, so perhaps some kind of "donation" to the order would be considered polite/necessary.

I would imagine the priestesses would accept practical goods that they might not have access to.

I have written several articles about a Voodoo Temple in New Orleans I used to visit. People give offerings to the spirits/saints at the Temple - Mardi Gras beads, cigarettes, booze and candy are common offerings, but just about anything will do - provided it means something to the person who gives the offering. The priestess didn't tell me what happens the offerings eventually, but they also don't believe in waste. My guess is the priestess uses or sells the offerings eventually, so that there will be room for the new ones.

My favorite part: The spirits apparently want the goods you give to be special. They hate Mardi Gras beads and other throws you buy in the tourist shops, but they love getting ones you earned during a parade. Depending on the parade, that can be pretty tricky. Little Max and I, the year before Katrina, got to roll with the Mystikal Krewe of Barkus. Well, he got to roll, I was just there to care for him LOL! No humans allowed in that Krewe. That's the only NOLA Mardi Gras parade I've ever seen and it's not on Fat Tuesday (thankfully) - but I was a Carnival Princess in the Children's Parade in Aruba.

I'm sure the Vulcan spirits, on the other hand, want practical stuff the priestesses can use.