Was there ever a direct order?

[WarpGirl]

Where did your mom buy the plaque I need one! My problem with that particular moment was that he didn't bother to ask for clarification of the order. I mean after All the episodes where she proved herself, like The Andorian Incident, Breaking The Ice a simple "Explain what you're doing before I try stop you" wasn't out-of-order. But then Trip sometimes doesn't think before he acts... In any case continuity wise it didn't make sense for him to freak out like that considering the time-line.

[Silverbullet]

T'Pol NEVER outranked Trip. Her Vulcan rank meant squat on a human Starship. In season three she had no rank at all. She never wore insignia of Rank in Season Three. When she requested to join Starfleet she came in as a junior Commander. Trip's Time in Srvice and time in grade woud put him in as Senior Commander. It would still be that way in the 22nd century as it is today. Change in the militarty is glacial.

Answer this: Would Andoirans, Vulcans or Klingon allow a tellrite Officer who might have an Equvalent Rank higher than the comander of a unit be allowedto command that unit? don't think so. None of them Vulcan, Andorian, Tellerite, Klingon or any other species would allow that. So, are Humans so stupd and intept that they need a Vulcan to take the by the hand and lead them? doubt that too. would the human crew accept a vulcan that they didn't know take comand or whould they want Tucker who they know is the Second Highest ranking Starfleet Officer on board and de facto FO to take ommand. What is a field commision? A Brevet commision? Archer is not authorized to grant one. that has to come from higher Authority. He can't grant a battle field commision as that can only be given to an Enlisted person of his own organiztion (military)

I know it is fiction but even fiction should have as much reality as possible to make te story more believable. I could never understand why Tucker couldn't be the Fo and Chief Engineer. He had a very good crew who could take care of the day to day operations so he would not be needed in Engineering most of the time.

I still say TPTB wanted Ent to be as close to the concept of TOS as possible so they had a Vulcan as FO and science Officer reven if they had to bring her in the back door.

[WarpGirl]

It doesn't matter why TPTB wanted T'Pol to have the position she did. What does matter that the show made clear that she had the authority second to Archer no matter what. It was not meant to be real and therefore they can do what they want. Telling all of us that its wrong doesn't change what they did in the show.

[Kotik]

I've tackled the issue in part II of "Broken Bow" (currently in work). SB won't like it, because it contradicts his opinion, but I'm staisfied with what I came up with.

BTW, SB. When I was serving in the army, our platoon was commanded by a french exchange officer for over a month. And the Startrek universe has seen the concept of aliens in the CoC as well. Remember the TNG episode "A Matter of Honour"? Riker serves as first officer on the Klingon battlecruiser Pagh. Even if change is slow, it must have happened along the way. It is possible in european military today, obviously possible in 2151 and in 23-whatever. Only because american military is too inflexible (and probably too paranoid, too) doesn't mean it isn't possible.

The french are Germany's allies, so there was nothing wrong with a french officer commanding a german platoon. The Vulcans and Humans are allies of sorts in 2151. I don't see much difference there.

[WarpGirl]

Kotik I can't picture you in the Army... But I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Kotik]

Kotik I can't picture you in the Army... But I think you hit the nail on the head.

Than you'll have to review your opinion of me, dear Served double of the mandatory time in a sapper platoon. First as the skipper of a jetstream boat in a pontoon bridge construction unit and later as a lance corporal (and later Corporal) in the armory,as well as a decon specialist for seek-and-rescue missions and in communications, because of my russian language knowledge.

[WarpGirl]

It takes all types I still can't picture my Grandparents in the Air Force.

[Silverbullet]

Kotik, there must have ben a hell of a dramatic change in European Military. Cause when I was in Europe (for 17 years) no French Officer could have commanded a German unit.

As I have said before NATO tried a Ship Officeered and crewed by various Nations. Didn't work worth a damn. It was quietly shelved. There had been a second Nato ship in the Works (My wife worked on part of it) which was stopped in the planning stages because the concept failed. I am not sure just what circumstances were in effect when that French Officer was an exchange Officer. It may have een that the German Platoon was ordered by thier own officers to obey the French Officer. Interesting thoujgh. I had never heard of something like that.

I did know that NATO central command was for pllanning purposes and the military of each nation was autonomous. There were Liason and observer to be sure but that status did not include command capabilities over foreign troops.

Learn something new every day.

BTW, if you think the Amercicans are bad you should see the Brits.

[aadarshinah]

meh, SB. Regardless of the illogic, T'Pol out ranks him. It's just something we gotta accept, along with tall, elvin-looking people from a super-hot and higher gravity planet, the fact there are so many humanoid speices out there, and idea that humans can (with some help) reproduce with so many of them.

But, I did find a direct order convo in "Azati Prime," for what it's worth:

TUCKER: I don't think you're doing this to make peace, I think you want to try and save the Captain.
T'POL: You 're wrong.
TUCKER: Why do I get the feeling you haven't thought this through?
T'POL: You have made your objection clear. Now return to the Bridge.
TUCKER: I'm not just going to sit still and watch you fly off and die.
T'POL: I gave you an order.
TUCKER: T'Pol.
T'POL: Let go of me!
TUCKER: I won't let you do this.
T'POL: I said, let go!
TUCKER: What the hell's wrong with you?
REED [OC]: Bridge to T'Pol.
T'POL: Go ahead.
REED [OC]: There's no need to go to the Xindi. It appears they're coming to us.

[Kotik]

Kotik, there must have ben a hell of a dramatic change in European Military. Cause when I was in Europe (for 17 years) no French Officer could have commanded a German unit.

As I have said before NATO tried a Ship Officeered and crewed by various Nations. Didn't work worth a damn. It was quietly shelved. There had been a second Nato ship in the Works (My wife worked on part of it) which was stopped in the planning stages because the concept failed. I am not sure just what circumstances were in effect when that French Officer was an exchange Officer. It may have een that the German Platoon was ordered by thier own officers to obey the French Officer. Interesting thoujgh. I had never heard of something like that.

I did know that NATO central command was for pllanning purposes and the military of each nation was autonomous. There were Liason and observer to be sure but that status did not include command capabilities over foreign troops.

Learn something new every day.

BTW, if you think the Amercicans are bad you should see the Brits.

The change came about in the early 90's. I served from '92 to '95. At that time the Dutch were using German training facilities on german soil under german supervision, the danish conducted joint manovers with us and even the russian (ex-soviet) occupation forces had liaison officers stationed with us until '93, when the last troops left. (that's why I got re-assigned to coms) Close cooperation between european forces - including exchange of officers - is common these days among european forces. Did you know that the German Luftwaffe (air force) has a permanent detachment stationed in Goose Bay, Canada ?

[enterprikayak]

*I* didn't know that.

[WarpGirl]

WOW! Well in any case the military like any organization has to evolve over time due to changing politics, technology, and other factors. And considering that the United States as we know it doesn't really exist in ST universe, than the "united earth" military might be a very different animal than any country's military on earth today.

[aadarshinah]

The fact that they use the term "United Earth" rather than just "Earth" makes me wonder if the UE isn't just a super successful and glorified type of UN, or EU. As in, the countries are still nominally independant and have various domestic things they bother themselves with, but, on the whole, they operate with one goverment, military, fiscal and extraplantary policy, etc... Like states to the US, only a little moreso. Essentially, the original Federation.

[WarpGirl]

Well it doesn't seem so. Earth has a centralized government in ST universe. There is no president of the US there is a Prime Minister of earth.

[Thot]

meh, SB. Regardless of the illogic, T'Pol out ranks him. It's just something we gotta accept, along with tall, elvin-looking people from a super-hot and higher gravity planet, the fact there are so many humanoid speices out there, and idea that humans can (with some help) reproduce with so many of them.

Actually there's an explanation for the two later points from your list. Ever seen the Next Generation episode The Chase?

And the piece in Azati Prime does count.

@ Kotik

To compare T'Pol's situation with the armies of the European Union doesn't work, since there doesn't exist a joined operations treaty between Starfleet and the VHC. Isn't this the thing Forest is talking about with Soval at the beginning of 'The Forge'?
Correct me if I'm wrong but is T'Pol classified as an observer or a liaison officer? I think it's the first one.
In addition, if there would be an agreement about the compatibility of High Command ranks in Starfleet then it also works the other way around and even more Starfleet personal must have access to the technology of the VHC, otherwise joint missions/operations would be virtually impossible. But on the other hand it would totally contradict the "This technology is classified" attitude of the Vulcans.
Therefore: It doesn't make sense.

So, it stays the same: TPTB wanted T'Pol as First Officer, although it contradicts some other things.