Archer as Captain

[Alelou]

Sigh. I suppose I could do a site search at Chrissie's Transcripts and exhaustively catalog this, because it's the kind of thing I'd like to know, but life is short. (Where's an obsessed autistic Trekkie when you need one???)

[Rigil Kent]

Sorry I go by the theory that canon is actually what is on TV.

No, actually canon is defined by what is aired, both on television and in the movies. But even then, there are differing degrees of canon (which admittedly gets really confusing.) In this case, I'm simply extrapolating the intent and trying to make sense of the senseless (because Civilian T'Pol doing the XO job honestly doesn't make much sense.) So, to me, it makes perfect sense for Archer to give her a field commission at the rank of commander so as to maintain the current chain-of-command.

OK you'll need to educate me here a bit, in layman's terms what would have happened if SF did not acknowledge the comission, and legitimize it? How would that have effected her position? Because I'm still very confused.

She simply would not have be allowed to continue serving aboard ENT as the XO once they returned home. It seems more like a formality than anything else because SFC would be kind of dumb to not acknowledge this commission given ENT's successful mission.

Well, not every week. And it's still monumentally different from the Xindi war.

The Xindi mission wasn't a war. If it was a war, Earth would have fielded a lot more ships and personnel. At best, it was a reprisal mission (although I wouldn't even classify it as such based on Earth's feeble response, what with them deploying a single science vessel), but it certainly wasn't a war.

What is WEPS?

Weapons Officer. Or Armoury Officer. Or whatever they call him. The guy who is in charge of the ship's weapons.

All of that is engineering stuff, not managing an entire ship's worth of personel in dozens of departments, going over reports, training, and dealing with supporting the Captain.

Engineering is already the largest department on the ship and with a Vulcan acting as XO, he's already going to be doing half of that. Do I think the ChEng has enough to do? Absolutely. But then, I also found the notion of the SCI pulling double-duty like Spock or T'Pol did kind of silly as well.

Give them too much and their work will be shoddy in one area, and neither command (of the ship) or engineering is where you want any major screw-ups.

The same holds true for the SCI.

But the Captain usually gets the plans from on high IRL.

Not in Trek, where the captain almost seems to be a power unto himself.

Perhaps, since the journey to The Expanse took 3 months and, presumabily, Enterprise was still in contact with Starfleet for at least part of that time, the Admiralty offered T'Pol a brevet commission after she resigned hers with the High Command, with the idea that it would only remain in effect as long as Enterprise was fighting the Xindi? Doesn't make sense why they'd still call her Subcommander if that was the case, I admit, but it came to mind.

But why would they attach that "expiration" date to it? I think it more likely that Archer wisely waited until they reached the Expanse to officially offer that field commission so as to not affect Earth's status with Vulcan back home. This was likely done with SFC's tacit approval since technically, ENT was supposed to be taking her back to Vulcan when she effectively defected.

Jumping back to the whole mess with Hayes, I hated to admit it, but all of the fault there really falls on Captain Archer's shoulders for failing to establish a clear chain-of-command. Ideally, he'd have brought Hayes & Reed into the same room and state outright what was going on. With me, I'd go: Archer-T'Pol-Tucker-Reed-Mayweather-and then Hayes, primarily because Hayes has no known starship experience and Travis wears the gold stripe so he should be trained to command. I sort of played with how I thought it should have worked in my Endeavour stuff with the SEAL and STAB teams; in ENT, Reed would be in command of the STAB stuff (shipboard ops) and Hayes would command the groundside stuff. But instead, they went for the "drama" of Reed feeling defensive.

[Silverbullet]

I know I am flogging this but I need some clarifcation: What is a field commision?

You say that Enterprise is a Science ship, not a military ship. I don't believe that scientists are commisioned Officers.

Help me please. You seem to be talking about military commisions but saying that Enterprise is not military so ARcher is not military. How can he confer a military commision?

If enterprise is a military ship it would have been from the Git Go, Season one.

Can't we have Enterprise as a military ship sent out on an exploration mission? T'Pol being offered a Brevet Commision?

There is precedent for that. Much of the early exploration of the "wilderness" of the U.S. ws by military expeditions. Notably Lewis and Clark. I belive that John Freemont too was a military Officer.

I blame Roddenbury for starting this stuff. He wanted to have his Cake and eat it too. So he never said (I believe) that Enterprise was military although eveeryone had military rank and military protocol was followed as was military punishment (court Martial) Writers of Ent followed suit and really fouled things up by not having any continuity. NO explanations at all. Just whatever was convient for them.

Anyway, either hshoot me to put me out of my misery or explain what is a Field Commision and how it is not a military commision.

[Thot]

If they did, though, why was no one ever promoted?

Well, there is a possible explanation with even a reason why they'd do something like this:

Your rank is fixed to the job you are doing.

Meaning: The commander of a ship is Captain, the chief engineer is Commander, the tactical officer is Lieutenant, the other department heads are Ensigns and that's it; no matter what rank you had before. The only exceptions would be SIC of bigger departments like Engineering or Science. Your "promotion" would happen when you are assigned to a different post (possibly including to jump more than one rank)

Why would you do this? => To solidify the chain of command, to avoid possibly uncomfortable "Once I was the same rank as you, but now I'm your superior officer" situations

In addition, you could determine the weightning of the command structure before the start of a mission: Something like "Our (Starfleet's) emphasis lies on Engineering + Science and not for example Tactics."

Therefore the only change in the chain you could face are either that somebody gets demoted or somebody new is insert into the equation.

For sure, you could point out that this would be a different handling than in known military + it could demotivate people to do their job

But like Kevin Thomas Riley pointed out: For what else do you have medals and recommondations? *This isn't meant too seriously*

And on the other hand it's a way to lessen the effects of a 'push-and-shove society' (in German you call it translated word by word "elbow society") - the jostling required to get ahead in the free market - since you get your "reward" only on the long run.

So, now is the time to tell me how ridiculous this explanation is.

There can't have been a MACO company on board. Then there'd be more MACOs than Starfleet crewmembers. Before the MACOs came on board, the NX-01 had about 85 people, officers and crew.

I always thought that the MACOs replaced the six/seven people, who were mentioned to stay behind before going to the Expanse in the episode of the same title.

But that's not the job of the XO. The way I always heard it, the CO comes up with the plan and the XO makes it happen (well, actually, the 1st Sergeant or 1st Shirt or Master Chief or whatever makes it happen, but he coordinates with the XO.) Again, displacing an already established command structure (T'Pol-2IC, Tucker-3IC, Reed-4IC) for an unknown quantity (Hayes) is terminal for the success of the mission, particularly since he actually appears to have less experience than those three.

That's also the reason, why I wasn't so appealed to the way Archer put Hayes under Malcolm during season 3. You have reasons for both ways.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they did reference some 'no frat' rules early on in ENT (was it during "Breaking the Ice" and the boyfriend/girlfriend question Archer fielded from that class of kids? Can't recall.) But comparatively, they were certainly more lax than a real military.

+

This rule is talked about in "Home" when it is made clear that Archer and Hernandez broke up when he was promoted to Captain but can rekindle the romance now that she's been promoted.

First scene in 'Fallen Hero' T'Pol says: "Starfleet forbids officers from fraternizing with subordinates."
It could be easily interpreted as fraternizing with the same rank is okay - as long as you don't cross the line of conduct unbecoming an officer.
In addition, it would fit to the Hernandez/Archer case.

She simply would not have be allowed to continue serving aboard ENT as the XO once they returned home. It seems more like a formality than anything else because SFC would be kind of dumb to not acknowledge this commission given ENT's successful mission.

In addition, in 'Twilight' Admiral Forest made her Captain of Enterprise, what wouldn't fit too well if there wouldn't be any sort of arrangement for her in the first place.

There is precedent for that. Much of the early exploration of the "wilderness" of the U.S. ws by military expeditions. Notably Lewis and Clark. I belive that John Freemont too was a military Officer.

And there are many examples for expeditions where actually military was involved but it still wasn't a military operation: John Livingston journey through Africa or Columbus ride over the ocean.

[aadarshinah]

My humble opinion, but:

Starfleet is military. It is military from the getgo, but it's also a military that doesn't know a real war until the Romulan War. It behaves like a military, internally, but doesn't really enage in the typical military things - ie, warfare - until after they've been in business for many years. For all we know, at Starfleet Academy they study war just like they would at the Naval War College or the USAFA, but, because of the fact the Vulcans are so peaceful, even though no one ever says anything to that effect, they kinda don't take it seriously. They've lived in peace too long to think that war is going to happen. This, of course, is stupidly naive, but, hey, if every alien race humans have met before leaving Earth (Vulcans, Denobulans, and presumably others) are friendly, you can see where they might get the idea that everyone is friendly...

and, on a side note,

Your rank is fixed to the job you are doing.

Meaning: The commander of a ship is Captain, the chief engineer is Commander, the tactical officer is Lieutenant, the other department heads are Ensigns and that's it; no matter what rank you had before. Your "promotion" would happen when you are assigned to a different post (possibly including to jump more than one rank)

Yes, but other Treks have seen promotions (and demotions) without change in your job. Paris goes from Lt. to Ensign to Lt. again in VOY all while remaining helmsman. Various others in DS9 have go up a rank but remain in their same jobs...

[Thot]

Yes, but other Treks have seen promotions (and demotions) without change in your job. Paris goes from Lt. to Ensign to Lt. again in VOY all while remaining helmsman. Various others in DS9 have go up a rank but remain in their same jobs...

And that's about 200 years into the future. Earth Starfleet can be quite different to Federation Starfleet (from a more NASA like organisation of a single planet to the full military of the Federation). Although I could live with aadarshinah version.

[WarpGirl]

No, actually canon is defined by what is aired, both on television and in the movies. But even then, there are differing degrees of canon (which admittedly gets really confusing.)

I meant movies too. But as for the rest it's why I said, everyone views it differently.

In this case, I'm simply extrapolating the intent and trying to make sense of the senseless (because Civilian T'Pol doing the XO job honestly doesn't make much sense.) So, to me, it makes perfect sense for Archer to give her a field commission at the rank of commander so as to maintain the current chain-of-command.

It does, I'm just saying that canonically, that didn't happen. But you're smarter than TPTB, everyone knows this.

She simply would not have be allowed to continue serving aboard ENT as the XO once they returned home. It seems more like a formality than anything else because SFC would be kind of dumb to not acknowledge this commission given ENT's successful mission.

Thank you for the education! And I concur, if that was what had happened.

The Xindi mission wasn't a war. If it was a war, Earth would have fielded a lot more ships and personnel. At best, it was a reprisal mission (although I wouldn't even classify it as such based on Earth's feeble response, what with them deploying a single science vessel), but it certainly wasn't a war.

According to eveything I saw the crew of Enterprise considered it a war. So I'll just say it was the 22nd century in the ST universe's version of a war.

Weapons Officer. Or Armoury Officer. Or whatever they call him. The guy who is in charge of the ship's weapons.

Merci!

Engineering is already the largest department on the ship and with a Vulcan acting as XO, he's already going to be doing half of that. Do I think the ChEng has enough to do? Absolutely. But then, I also found the notion of the SCI pulling double-duty like Spock or T'Pol did kind of silly as well.

Again agreed, but it is the Trek way.

The same holds true for the SCI.

True. But in Trek they don't really do all that much.

Not in Trek, where the captain almost seems to be a power unto himself.

WORD!

Perhaps, since the journey to The Expanse took 3 months and, presumabily, Enterprise was still in contact with Starfleet for at least part of that time, the Admiralty offered T'Pol a brevet commission after she resigned hers with the High Command, with the idea that it would only remain in effect as long as Enterprise was fighting the Xindi? Doesn't make sense why they'd still call her Subcommander if that was the case, I admit, but it came to mind.

But why would they attach that "expiration" date to it? I think it more likely that Archer wisely waited until they reached the Expanse to officially offer that field commission so as to not affect Earth's status with Vulcan back home. This was likely done with SFC's tacit approval since technically, ENT was supposed to be taking her back to Vulcan when she effectively defected. Jumping back to the whole mess with Hayes, I hated to admit it, but all of the fault there really falls on Captain Archer's shoulders for failing to establish a clear chain-of-command. Ideally, he'd have brought Hayes & Reed into the same room and state outright what was going on. With me, I'd go: Archer-T'Pol-Tucker-Reed-Mayweather-and then Hayes, primarily because Hayes has no known starship experience and Travis wears the gold stripe so he should be trained to command. I sort of played with how I thought it should have worked in my Endeavour stuff with the SEAL and STAB teams; in ENT, Reed would be in command of the STAB stuff (shipboard ops) and Hayes would command the groundside stuff. But instead, they went for the "drama" of Reed feeling defensive.

WOW!

Starfleet is military. It is military from the getgo, but it's also a military that doesn't know a real war until the Romulan War. It behaves like a military, internally, but doesn't really enage in the typical military things - ie, warfare - until after they've been in business for many years. For all we know, at Starfleet Academy they study war just like they would at the Naval War College or the USAFA, but, because of the fact the Vulcans are so peaceful, even though no one ever says anything to that effect, they kinda don't take it seriously. They've lived in peace too long to think that war is going to happen. This, of course, is stupidly naive, but, hey, if every alien race humans have met before leaving Earth (Vulcans, Denobulans, and presumably others) are friendly, you can see where they might get the idea that everyone is friendly...

A few problems with that... 1. Why would SF refer to MACO's as military officers? 2. SF Academy does not exist yet, and there is never any mention that officers study warfare.

[Silverbullet]

What about Kelby? He still wears Commanders Pips even after Trip comes back and resumes his position as Chief Engineer. However in Bound Trip addresses him as Lt but Kelby is still wearing Commanders Pips. Kelby tell the Orion woman that Trip is his superior officer but they seem to be the same rank. Kelby is called Commander by Archer in one Episode. How does that work?

[aadarshinah]

A few problems with that... 1. Why would SF refer to MACO's as military officers? 2. SF Academy does not exist yet, and there is never any mention that officers study warfare.

But they do mention STC in "Observer Effect":

TUCKER: This reminds me of my dorm room at Starfleet Training. Got into a lot of trouble at old STC.
HOSHI: I got kicked out.
TUCKER: Well, you can't stop there.
HOSHI: In my second month, I had a difference of opinion with the Company Commander. I broke his arm.
TUCKER: Can I ask why?
HOSHI: Poker.
TUCKER: You broke his arm playing cards?
HOSHI: He tried to shut down a game I was running for some of the recruits, and a couple of the training staff.
TUCKER: Hold on. You ran a floating poker game at STC?

It's my opinon STC is either a fancy version of boot camp or a precurssor to the Academy. In my mind, I figure, "Well, Hayes is an officer and he went to West Point," (see quote from "The Hatchery" below)

T'POL: I want you and your men to return to duty.
HAYES: Yes, ma'am. (T'Pol and Trip leave) Not the sort of thing they trained us for at West Point.
REED: I imagine not.

"And officer's today tend to have training at places like West Point, so, presumabily, they have a Starfleet version thereof (The Academy) to train their own officers..."

But, again, humble opinion....

[Silverbullet]

Double Post. WG Starfleet Acadmy does exist. Hoshi says that she was given a Bad Conduct Discharge from Starfleet Acadmy.

I think too that somewhre it said that Trip also had gone through the Acadmy.

I am obviously am not going to get an answer to what is a Field Commision. How is it not a military Commision. I agree that Starfellt and Enterprise were military from the git go. Makes more sense.

[WarpGirl]

Fair enough, I thought it was pretty clear they were vastly different beasts in comparison to what we know of TOS, TNG...

That still doesn't answer the question as to why SF refers to MACO's as military personel???????

[quote=Chrissie's Transcripts]TUCKER: This reminds me of my dorm room at Starfleet Training. Got into a lot of trouble at old STC.
HOSHI: I got kicked out.
TUCKER: Well, you can't stop there.
HOSHI: In my second month, I had a difference of opinion with the Company Commander. I broke his arm.
TUCKER: Can I ask why?
HOSHI: Poker.
TUCKER: You broke his arm playing cards?
HOSHI: He tried to shut down a game I was running for some of the recruits, and a couple of the training staff.
TUCKER: Hold on. You ran a floating poker game at STC?[/quote]

STC is not SF Academy. It's not even close to it. It's the embryo of the academy.

[WarpGirl]

Fair enough, I thought it was pretty clear they were vastly different beasts in comparison to what we know of TOS, TNG...

That still doesn't answer the question as to why SF refers to MACO's as military personel???????

TUCKER: This reminds me of my dorm room at Starfleet Training. Got into a lot of trouble at old STC.
HOSHI: I got kicked out.
TUCKER: Well, you can't stop there.
HOSHI: In my second month, I had a difference of opinion with the Company Commander. I broke his arm.
TUCKER: Can I ask why?
HOSHI: Poker.
TUCKER: You broke his arm playing cards?
HOSHI: He tried to shut down a game I was running for some of the recruits, and a couple of the training staff.
TUCKER: Hold on. You ran a floating poker game at STC?

STC is not SF Academy. It's not even close to it. It's the embryo of the academy.

[WarpGirl]

That didn't work the way I wanted it too.

[aadarshinah]

Maybe I'm just a little confused (I'm actually thinking NAP right now and feel like 3yrs old for doing so), but if STC is a even a precursor to the Academy, doesn't that make it somewhat close to the Academy? Embryos, after all, are intimately related to the people they become....

[WarpGirl]

True, but it's not nearly the same type of system they ended up developing for SF academy.