Justice in early Starfleet

[WarpGirl]

Okay fine. But even if you don't want to make Soval a nice guy, but I don't see how it's reasonable to not involve the Vulcans. We're dealing with two Vulcan citizens even if Earth has juristiction in this the Vulcans have to be involved. Earth may be able to put Tolaris on trial even hold him in prison, but they can't not get the Vulcans involved because he's a Vulcan citizen.

[Kotik]

I'm still convinced that Vulcan does not need - does not even want - to be involved. The V'Tosh'Katur are outcasts. The only interaction with the Vulcans is Kov's father asking for a message and that's a personal request, because he's about to kick the bucket.

Considering their season 1 noseyness, the Vulcans would have gotten involved immediately after they encountered the Vahklas. But apparently they didn't give a flying expletive about them.

[Cogito]

That's the conundrum, how to make Archer react decently instead of the ignorant assclown he was written as in this episode.

It's not that much of a conundrum though, is it? It's somewhat out of character, but there are some pretty obvious ways to deal with Tolaris that don't involve Starfleet. Personally, I'm all in favour and it would explain why he decided to look Tolaris in the eye without (officially) dealing with him at all.

[WarpGirl]

Okay if you came to the USA and did something bad, the fact that you are a German citizen means that both state departments automatically get involved. There is politics, treaties, and diplomacy to consider. How is this situation different. Added to that the fact that T'Pol is a military officer of Vulcan it just doesn't make sense to do what you're talking about.

And just remember you asked.

[Silverbullet]

WG, you are right. There is a case pending right now. both the State Department and the German Foreign Office are involved.

However, much depends on the country. In many countries civil rights is more or less ignored. While many ex colonies use the justice system of the colonia power. they eventually meld it into their own versions.

A fair trial is often how much you can come up with for a bribe. (one guy in thailand thought he had enough to beat a child porn rap, He was shy about 50,000 so he is stilll in prison. Had he the money he would be out and in Europe now.)

I wonder what law Vulcan would have Constitutional Law? Interesting question.

ARcher ay have done the right thing. get rid of the problem by gettign rid of tolaris even if it meant letting him go scot free. Saves a lot of heartache

SB

[WarpGirl]

OMG I'm gonna faint I'm *right* usually, whenever we talk diplomacy, military, or anything like this usually it turns into a thing. But yes I know I'm right, and no, Archer did not do the right thing.

[Kotik]

WG, I think you're not completely right. If I as a German citizen comit a crime on US soil, I'll have the american justice system all over my fat arse, but not the german authorities. There are two ways for ze Germanz to get involved:

#1: The american authorities file a Rechtshilfeersuchen (Request for judicial Assistance), which is usually done, if they need additional help from the German authorities. Usually that is done, when there are clues, that there could be accomplices still in germanyland or if they suspect the crime has been partially prepared outside americal territory. The particulars of such a request are regulated in bilateral treaties.

#2: The accused has the right to plea for assistance from the German embassy. The Embassy staff then decides what to do, they can just send a German speaking lawyer, or if there's realistic hope of the accused not being guilty, they might decide to invoke process #1 in the opposite direction, which would mean american authorities allow german authorities to join the investigation.

The german judicial system is not automatically included, except I think for capital crimes. Another exception to the rule are plane crashes. Those always trigger a joint investigation of the authorities of the country in which the rust bucket is registered and the authorities of the country the plane crashed in. In the majority of cases the american NTSB is also included, but only because usually one of the two parties requests their help.

[WarpGirl]

I'm not saying the German justice system gets involved. I'm saying the state department does. BIG DIFFERENCE. My point is that the US cannot just throw you in jail without some kind of representation from the government you are a citizen under. Your government would have to know what crime you are being accused of, where you are being held, how they are treating you, if the charges are valid, if there is enough conclusive evidence to substantient them.

Look at the Amanda Knox case, she's in jail in Italy, but the US is involved because she is a US citizen. Period. Your government would be involved if you were incarserated here, they might decide to let the US do whatever they wanted but they would still be involved.

[Kotik]

That's an interesting one:

Crimes committed by foreign nationals

[WarpGirl]

I'm not sure I'd trust a blog about something like this.

[putaro]

If a foreign national commits a crime there's no obligation on the part of the prosecuting country to inform the other country. Usually the defendant will want their government to be involved and their lawyer would bring them in. It's not required, though.

[Cogito]

My point is that the US cannot just throw you in jail without some kind of representation from the government you are a citizen under.

That's probably true (I don't know either way) but if so it's the result of the US law (presumably driven by their various foreign treaties) and not an inherent right of a foreign national in a strange land. When you visit a foreign country, you are entirely at the mercy of their laws.

[Kotik]

If a foreign national commits a crime there's no obligation on the part of the prosecuting country to inform the other country. Usually the defendant will want their government to be involved and their lawyer would bring them in. It's not required, though.

That's my info, too. If you're caught comitting a crime in a foreign nation, you have a RIGHT to call up your embassy for involvement of your own countries authorities. Usually the foreign forces are not obliged to involve them.

[Cogito]

If you're caught comitting a crime in a foreign nation, you have a RIGHT to call up your embassy for involvement of your own countries authorities.

You only have that right if the law of the country you're in gives you that right. It's not true to say that anybody in any foreign country has that right.

[Kotik]

If you're caught comitting a crime in a foreign nation, you have a RIGHT to call up your embassy for involvement of your own countries authorities.

You only have that right if the law of the country you're in gives you that right. It's not true to say that anybody in any foreign country has that right.

Sure, but we're talking about it in the context of 22nd century starfleet. I have slight doubts that their laws will be styled after North Korea.