CMO Phlox

[Silverbullet]

Many feel that Phlox failed in his duty: He did not relieve Archer when it was evidentArcher needed to be evaluated and was refusing the evaluation

Phlox did not inform Archer that T'Pol was addicted to Trellium

There we other things too (which I cannot remember)

I believe that Archers authority ended at the dooor of sickbay.Tthe CMO was in command there. Rgulations barred Archer from intefering with what Phox was doing. His diagonisis and his cures.

In Sim Archer said he had not decided on creating Sim. That was not rRchers decidon. It was the decision of te CMO.

Phlox can relieve Archer from duty and install the XO in command.

Perhaps Archer could relieve Phlox but where would he get another Doctor. So it is doubtful Acher would try such a risky action

Phlox ws a good Doctor who irritated hell out of Trip because he was always laughing.

SB

[Cogito]

Here's what Phlox said to Archer after telling him about the cloning option:

I don't make this proposal lightly, Captain, but I'm obligated to provide you with all available options.

That suggests that in fact Phlox was leaving the decision to Archer.

[Silverbullet]

Phllox may have been telling Archer all the available options to him, Phlo. he just didn't add to myself. He may have thought that Archer would understand what he, Phlox, meant.

Archer is not a doctor nor does he have amedical degree. What phlox was prosingwas a difficult medical precdure. He would not leave such a thing to Archer. Phlox had to save Trip. the clone was the only way Phlox could do it.He could not rely on Archer because Archer would not understand all of the ramifactions. Archer might have said no. then Phlox would have had to tell Archer that it was the CMO's decision.

SB

[Cogito]

No, I can't interpret Phlox's words in any other way except that he was leaving the choice to Archer.

[WarpGirl]

Okay guess what, no CMO in ST's authority was sacroscant in or out of sickbay. The Captain's authority has always superceeded the CMO. That's just the way it is.

[Distracted]

Unless the captain was obviously incapacitated, in which case it's the CMO's job to relieve him of duty. But Archer was in control and fully capable of rational decision making regarding Trip and Sim. Although I agree that Phlox dropped the ball with Archer in Hatchery and should have notified command in the case of T'Pol's trellium D addiction, Archer's was the final say in Sim's case.

[Silverbullet]

Wrong. Beverly ran her Sickbay Picard always asked he wahat she was doing. He might make suggestions but he did not interfere.

Archer bullied Phlox often. In one Episode he made Phlox wake up a patient that should have been left alone. He made hlox prepare Hoshi to go on to the weapon although she was not in any shape to do so.

NO SHIP'S Captain is a Doctor or has a medical degree. That is why his authority stops at the door of Sickbay. He doesn't have the knowledge. Nw Phlox may let him get away with things but that is up to phlox. Starflet regs probably are quite specific about te fact ta the CMO has the final say. It would be chaototic if the commanding Officercould overulehte CMO. He might come in to sick bay, order a crewman that he, the commanding officer, thinks is okay and he orders him bck to duty over the prtests of the CMO. Crewman returns to duty, collapses and dies. What then.

In our modern armed forces the CMO has the final say. commanding officer can ask, suggest, but he cannot order the CMO.

SB

[WarpGirl]

Oh yes Picard DID interfere and made Bev do some things that clearly pissed her off.

[Silverbullet]

I reiterate. NO Ships Captain is a doctor or has a medical degree.That is why his autoruty stops at the Sickbay door.

SB

[Cogito]

I'm no doctor and there are lots of people who know far more about this than I do, but I always thought that in the real world it was up to the patient to decide what treatment to accept, not the doctor. If the Trek 'verse is similar, it would need a court order (or some Starfleet-ey equivalent) to override the patient's wishes; I don't think that the CMO would actually have any right or power to decide on the patient's behalf, except perhaps during a medical emergency where an unconscious patient's acceptance of emergency treatment might be implicit.

If the patient isn't in a position to decide for themselves then I suppose it would be up to the next of kin to decide for them. Perhaps the Captain was the de-facto next of kin as far as Starfleet was concerned? That would be consistent with what we saw on the show, which was that Phlox told Archer the medical options and left the decision to Archer.

[Asso]

I regret to admit that on this particular occasion Phlox behaved like those who throw the stone and then hide the hand.
The Doctor took out from his top hat the magic card of the larva, then (apparently) put the ball in the hands of Archer.
Eh no, my dear doctor. It is not this the way to do. .
Mh ... did you realize by chance that, contrary to the majority, I have a little allergy for Phlox?

[Rigil Kent]

I reiterate. NO Ships Captain is a doctor or has a medical degree.That is why his autoruty stops at the Sickbay door.

In. Your. Opinion.

That isn't how the shows worked so saying that it is absolutely this way when there's visual evidence to the contrary doesn't make sense. When it boils down to it, the final authority and responsibility for everything that happens on a starship falls on the ship commander's shoulders (whoever that commander might be at the time), so Phlox presented the captain with a risky option and for dramatic purposes the captain took that option.

[Cogito]

Well, once we've contrived ourself into facing that decision, I don't see how the captain could have decided any other way under the circumstances.

Not a decision I would want to face in real life, that's for sure.

[Silverbullet]

Doctor Asso and Doctor Distracrted. Would you want anyone overiding yuor diagnosis? What you decided as reatment for that Diagnosis? I highly doubt it. Certainly not a Bean counter or anyone.

I cannot remember any occasion that Picard overuled Beverly. He sugested and she may have followed those sggestions but he didn't ovrule her.

Nor did Janeway interfere with the Doctor even though he was a holoprogram. As far as Janeway was concerned he was the Doctor.

SB

[Asso]

I reiterate. NO Ships Captain is a doctor or has a medical degree.That is why his autoruty stops at the Sickbay door.

In. Your. Opinion.

That isn't how the shows worked so saying that it is absolutely this way when there's visual evidence to the contrary doesn't make sense. When it boils down to it, the final authority and responsibility for everything that happens on a starship falls on the ship commander's shoulders (whoever that commander might be at the time), so Phlox presented the captain with a risky option and for dramatic purposes the captain took that option.

All in all, here - I believe - we discuss for the sake of arguing. It is clear that nothing and no one will ever change what we saw on the screen (of course I do not speak of the abomination. That is not part of the show, is part of the sick fantasy of some malignant sorcerer of nightmare).
However, discussions about what is deemed logical and plausible and that is not considered that has been thus on the show, well, this makes perfect sense.
Actually, that's what we all do.
I can understand Silverbullet and I can also understand Rigil Kent.
Of course, I feel like saying something. There may be many ways to achieve dramatic effects and even to speak, more or less directly, of moral choices.
I can not say, in my opinion, that the way chosen in this particular episode on the show, was particularly brilliant.
Too many ambiguities, for me, and even a little forced.
But I must also say that if it wanted to make discuss, well, apparently it succeeded perfectly.