Canon: Fate of Trip and T'Pol unknown

[WarpGirl]

When I say TPTB I mean the owners of the Trek Franchise. I'm pretty sure that is Paramount THEY decide what is and is not considered Trek Canon. As of today, canon is defined as all live action events as seen on screen. I didn't make the rules.

[Cogito]

When I say TPTB I mean the owners of the Trek Franchise. I'm pretty sure that is Paramount THEY decide what is and is not considered Trek Canon. As of today, canon is defined as all live action events as seen on screen. I didn't make the rules.

Let's be clear. Are you saying that Paramount accept as canon that Data lived at 221b Baker Street in the late 19th Century, and that Minuette was as real a person as Picard? That's how you define canon?

[putaro]

When I say TPTB I mean the owners of the Trek Franchise. I'm pretty sure that is Paramount THEY decide what is and is not considered Trek Canon. As of today, canon is defined as all live action events as seen on screen. I didn't make the rules.

Let's be clear. Are you saying that Paramount accept as canon that Data lived at 221b Baker Street in the late 19th Century, and that Minuette was as real a person as Picard? That's how you define canon?

I'll be in my bunker.

[WarpGirl]

I'm saying that I accept that DATA enjoyed portraying Detective Sherlock Holmes, on the holodeck, and as that character lived in a holographic representation of 221 Baker Street during his holo time... and that Riker, Picard, and Geordie all fell in love with holographic characters. I accept that according to historical records, Riker and Troi accept that Tucker died in 2164 and he and T'Pol ended their relationship after Terra Prime.

What they experienced in the holodeck became their reality. It's the ultimate form of VR.

Until the owners change it that is official canon. It does NOT mean I have to like it. I hate A LOT of canon.

[Cogito]

I'm saying that I accept that DATA enjoyed portraying Detective Sherlock Holmes, on the holodeck, and as that character lived in a holographic representation of 221 Baker Street during his holo time... and that Riker, Picard, and Geordie all fell in love with holographic characters. I accept that according to historical records, Riker and Troi accept that Tucker died in 2164 and he and T'Pol ended their relationship after Terra Prime.

This much I'm happy with. But what it means is this: In canon (as you define the term), Riker and Troi accepted as fact that Tucker died etc.

Them accepting it as a fact is not the same as it being a fact.

[WarpGirl]

As long as Paramount doesn't change that. Then it is canon. That's how it works.

[lfvoy]

But what it means is this: In canon (as you define the term), Riker and Troi accepted as fact that Tucker died etc.

Them accepting it as a fact is not the same as it being a fact.

Unfortunately, there isn't a shred of canonical evidence supporting the idea that the facts, as Riker and Troi were taught, are incorrect. But there's plenty of evidence supporting the idea that they were both taught history fairly accurately (at least as accurately as can be done in any history class).

So if they're remembering this as history -- which is clear from the episode's dialogue -- rather than a story or a fantasy, then there's probably a fairly logical reason. I also have a hard time believing that Troi and Riker would consider something to be reasonably true if it had been taught to them as a "possibility" rather than a fact.

Any claim that the story is "just a holodeck creation" would mean that Starfleet Academy's history courses are based on shoddy scholarship and half-truths. Sorry, but that dog don't hunt.

Much as I wish it did. I'm the first to admit that my assertions about Trip being alive cannot be supported by canonical evidence.

[WarpGirl]

[Alelou]

Trip's death is canon, given what Putaro points out, but the end of their romance wasn't referred to except inside the holodeck program, so that's appreciably less canonical. In any case, you could fly a starship through the wiggle room in this canon.

I wouldn't have quite so much faith in history even at Starfleet Academy, personally. The narratives of minor events can become corrupted very easily, especially if people at the time engaged in a cover-up. Major events are more likely to worm their way out eventually, for scholars and partisans to argue about forever after. Small ones that don't really have much bearing on how we interpret that period -- not so much.

That's part of what's so bad about that episode. Trip's death is just so minor. If it had meant more -- had been lost against an enemy who posed a threat to more than just Jonathan Archer, in a conflict that mattered more than a stupid jewel heist -- we could have accepted it so much better.

[WarpGirl]

Well, for me what I like and want and what is officially canon are two totally seperate things.

I write fanfic to have what I like and want for TnT, hence T'Pol has a legit reason for trying TD, she and Trip are far more mature when it comes to their behavior, and Harbinger ended in a kiss and not sex, and the brush off was for reasons that gave them both dignity as people.

In reality... T'Pol was an idiot with a drug problem, both she and Trip had the emotional maturity of average 14yr olds, and they provided all the evidence in the world why a one-night-stand is a stupid idea and degrading to both parties.

Bottom line, of course in my imagination Trip isn't dead, and they never broke up. But canon does not exist to conform to our wants. Hey we've got it good here, in the KOTOR world canon destroyed EVERYTHING that made it special.

[panyasan]

I'm saying that I accept that DATA enjoyed portraying Detective Sherlock Holmes, on the holodeck, and as that character lived in a holographic representation of 221 Baker Street during his holo time... and that Riker, Picard, and Geordie all fell in love with holographic characters. I accept that according to historical records, Riker and Troi accept that Tucker died in 2164 and he and T'Pol ended their relationship after Terra Prime

If one holoprogram is a holoprogramm and not fact (meaning: it happened in real life, it is true), but a fantasy that Data is enjoying, then the other hologram (the one of Riker and Troi) could also be a fantasy.

As for historical facts: my history teacher told me once, discussing the history of a area of the world: history is like a coin. It depends on which side you are. For example, Queen Marie Antoinette of France was a teenager who tried to do her best to do good, but the French revolutionists made her a spoiled, money consuming and indifferent person, because it served their propaganda better. And so she ended in our history books.

However, I don't want to throw out all history books and mere facts of history. Both Rigil and IFvoy have good points (as much as I wanted to see it differently).
But I see light in the tunnel when I read Alelou's comment.
I agree with Alelou, that if Trip's death was faked, like we seen in the Relaunch books, his death could easily be a cover-up. And cover-ups don't end in history books, as long as the people how have an interest in that cover up are around.

So yes, *the_abomination* is canon, because that's what we see on screen.

However, are all things that are suggested in *the_abomination* canon or better said facts?

Troi and Riker walking around, yes. Riker asking advice of Troi? Yes. Chef as the counselor of Enterprise? Well, it's canon, but given what we saw in the episodes of Enterprise, this can hardly be true.
Did Trip die after the accident?
There are so many factors that raises doubts about this (we don't see him die), the hologramm is clearly incorrect on many occassions and given the fact that the relaunch books clearly states Trip fakes his death, it's safe to say no to that last question.

[WarpGirl]

Okay, like I said I'm more than willing to ignore *the_abomination* and everything that came with it. Nobody has to like what the producers and writers do on any TV show, movies, plays, and music, everyone is free to reject it. I reject a lot as I've said.

But the point of canon, is not for the fans. It's for the business. Canon is for franchizing. It's about $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Calling *the_abomination* *not canon* changes nothing for Paramount and everyone involved in the franchize. All it does is make people like us argue about it.

Bottom line think what you want. We'll all right fanfic anyway. That said, you can't change memory-alpha.

[Transwarp]

If you need more ammunition to support your thesis that the holodeck program Riker saw was not real, then you might point out that it contained information that was impossible for anyone to know or make a record of. (For example, Trip and T'Pol's private and intimate discussion on the shuttlepod, or the private conversations with Chef in the galley.)

For those to be accurate historical records, you would have to postulate that Starfleet had video recorders running EVERYWHERE on the ship, and was saving EVERYTHING. This is highly unlikely, if not flat-out impossible.

And even if it was possible, the people being recorded would know they were under surveillance, and it would change the interpretation of what they said or did. T'Pol would certainly not admit to a relationship with Trip in a conversation she knew was being recorded.

All this on top of the other inconsistencies and inaccuracies already pointed out by others here. The holo-program was clearly fiction, not fact.

[Cogito]

As long as Paramount doesn't change that. Then it is canon. That's how it works.

By canon, you mean canon according to Paramount.

If Paramount state that Trip died, then in their canon Trip died. Have they explicitly stated that? If they have, then it's irrelevant to debate about whether that is a sensible or realistic or desirable thing for them to believe.

But if Paramount have only defined their canon as 'whatever you saw on the show was real' then what was shown was a holodeck simulation of historical events, nothing more and nothing less. So canon is merely 'Troi and Riker saw a holodeck simulation showing ...'.

Any inference you make about what that implies about actual history is only an inference, and not canon. You might have an opinion about how likely or unlikely it is for that holoprogram to be accurate, but canon doesn't define whether it is accurate, only that it was shown on the holodeck.

[WarpGirl]

Oh Cogito this is so wierd. Okay, All I'm saying is that the episode made it abundantly clear that Troi, and Riker, accepted the program as fact. Because of that, according to Paramount it is fact. It will be fact until they decide to change it.