Question about "Terra Prime"

[Aquarius]

Toward the end of the episode, where Trip and T'Pol are sitting vigil over baby Elizabeth in Sickbay, Archer gives a date of January 22 in his log entry.

After that, everyone is down on the surface while Archer addresses the ambassadors--including Trip, T'Pol, and Phlox...which I thought was kinda weird because with the baby's life in peril you'd think at least ONE of them would be staying with her and that Archer would be cool with that. But whatever.

Then after that, we see Trip come to T'Pol's quarters to tell her about the delegates wanting to attend the funeral, etc....

So my question is, how much time passed between that log entry/Sickbay scene, and that conversation between Trip and T'Pol after the baby was gone? I don't recall any log entries occurring after that so there's really not a frame of reference...T'Pol's dressed differently so it could just as easily be a different day as it could be later that same day. I know it's kind of a nit-picky question, but the information will be a little helpful to me as I write my fic.

Thanks.

[Alelou]

Well, it's my impression that we see the baby has died in that same scene with Archer -- when they both look up from the baby, and Phlox turns to go to them.

So I assumed the later stuff happened at least a day later, if not more. (Believe me, I read the transcript and sat down and tried to figure it out with a pencil when I was writing Commander Tucker Proposes.)

I was kind of startled to realize that they're both at this stupid conference BEFORE the baby's memorial service. Talk about returning to duty quickly. In fact I had to write a scene just to explain that to my own satisfaction.

[Chelle-sama]

Augh! Hard one!

Okay, we know just a few things for certain:
The conference at the beginning of 'Demons' is taking place on January 19th. At this point in time, T'Pol comments that Samuels wants to draft the charter for the Coalition of Planets within six weeks.

On January 22 the ship is headed back to Earth.

Elizabeth is on board the ship on that date.

When Samuels gives his speech, he says "Fellow delegates, this last week we've seen what humans can be at their worst."

Now the guess-work starts.
We can assume that, since the engines appeared to be working just fine, that Jan. 22 is the day Trip, T'Pol, and Elizabeth are rescued because it's not far from Mars to Earth at warp speed. Even on impulse, it should take just hours.

During that trip, Hoshi and Samuels are in the Mess Hall discussing the conference. From them, we know that the conference (presumably to begin drafting the charter) may be postponed.

You already pointed out that both parents and the doctor are at the conference where Samuels gives his speech mentioning 'in the past week'. Chances are that he's using the death of Susan Khouri as the beginning of all that's happened in that time frame. So the date probably isn't any later than 26 January.

The scene takes place after the scene in Sickbay where T'Pol hangs the IDIC up and Phlox asks Archer to "Make some good come of this, Captain."

Elizabeth is most likely dead by the time the speech is made. In fact, my thought was that her death, and Ensign Masaro's guilt-ridden suicide, is probably what Samuels used to get the delegates to agree to continue the conference.

T'Pol tells Travis "She's dying." when he comes in to rescue them. Elizabeth has been sick since at least the 19th of January, and probably longer since the doctor in 'Demons' and Paxton are talking about how it's 'been going on for days.' Whatever it is, it's serious enough that it could start to interfere with her breathing, but "Fever's deminished. She's fighting it off."

'Deminished 'isn't 'gone', and you don't win every fight. It could be the same illness.

Now, both Trip and T'Pol were there for the speeches. In final scene, Trip is telling T'Pol that 'the delegates from the conference' are asking. We can assume T'Pol didn't know that they were interested. So she either left right after the speeches and Trip stayed, or it's another day and Trip was there without her. If it's the latter, it's probably the very next day, since they haven't had the memorial yet.

So, given all that, I would think the final scene is taking place within 5 days of the first scene in Sickbay.

Chelle

P.S. I got the transcripts from http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/episodes.htm and my info on impulse and warp drives at http:///www.memory-alpha.org

[Escriba]

So my question is, how much time passed between that log entry/Sickbay scene, and that conversation between Trip and T'Pol after the baby was gone?

At least 24 hours. Not less. Authopsy, official declaration of death, delegates reaching an agreement to attend the funeral... Between 24 and 48 hours will be the normal thing.

Now, it is entirely possible that Vulcans have the custom of burying corpses in the 24 hours after the decease (in a desertic people, it would be normal), then it should be before a day had last.

But I think that between one and two days is more logical. Or, you could follow what chelle-sama says (which has even more logic )

[Aquarius]

Both times I watched the episode, it wasn't clear to me that Elizabeth was already gone by the time they got to the conference. For one thing, Trip and T'Pol both looked pretty well put-together at the conference, they didn't look like a couple of people who just lost a kid. I couldn't imagine them being forced to attend or wanting to attend if their child had just died. I know there's a certain amount of professionalism and doing one's duty and all that, but even in Starfleet I'd think the boss would tell them to take the day off, you know? In the scene after the conference, where Trip tells her about the delegates wanting to attend and about Human and Vulcan genes being compatible, I got the impression that it was fresh grief, like it just happened since coming back from the conference, because at at that point, they're both pretty much a mess.

It also makes no sense to me if she was still alive, too, because even though they just found out about her, they both went Mama Bear and Papa Bear pretty much right away, I couldn't imagine anyone being able to pry either one of them away from the incubator, and you'd think that Phlox would be keeping an eye on her. So in either scenario, it just doesn't make sense for the parents of a sick child or a child who's just died. *shrug*

Regardless of when, exactly, Elizabeth died, this has given me a better handle on the timeline between the scenes, so thanks to everyone for that~

[Alelou]

I don't know. I'd expect T'Pol to be able to fake it even after a child dies, at least for a little while. I think Trip looks zoned out/numb. I didn't like that he actually paid attention to Archer's speech, enough to try to clap with an arm on his leg. Not that the speech was bad, I just think that if I were standing there in that situation, I wouldn't be paying attention to any of it. But maybe he's just clapping because other people are clapping.

That clapping -- lead of course by Soval -- was classic Star-Trek-getting-too-damned-pious-and-self-congratulatory. I think that scene would have been much better without it, or even by putting some dubious or skeptical looks on our aliens' faces.

[Chelle-sama]

Both times I watched the episode, it wasn't clear to me that Elizabeth was already gone by the time they got to the conference. For one thing, Trip and T'Pol both looked pretty well put-together at the conference, they didn't look like a couple of people who just lost a kid.

You're right; it isn't clear when she dies. (Though I agree with Alelou, that it's when both Trip and T'Pol look away.) And how they looked at the conference bothered me, too. Especially when I went through actually looking to see how long it might have been. I can't imagine anyone telling them that they'd have to go, even if Elizabeth is still alive at that point. I mean, they know she's dying and you want to force her parents to waste a few hours just being where they can be seen?

It's the fact that the final scene takes place in T'Pol's quarters and Trip is losing it that really makes you wonder if she really did die before the speech scene.

I think, no matter when Elizabeth died, it's got to be less than two days because a memorial is usually held pretty quickly. Even with an autopsy, it'd be pretty quick since Phlox already knew what was wrong with her once he got her into Sickbay.

Chelle

[Aquarius]

I agree with Alelou that T'Pol would pull it together and do whatever was required of her under any circumstances...and I suppose I could see Trip reasoning "If T'Pol's going, I'm going," but honestly, whether Elizabeth was gone at that point or not, T'Pol's presence there is the only thing I can think of that would keep Trip from saying "screw the conference." Yeah, interplanetary peace and cooperation is important, but somehow I think that diminishes when you lose a kid. Certainly it did help put perspective on things for the delegates, though, I'm sure.

I was thinking about funerals I've been to, and it seems that depending on things like how long it takes family to assemble, etc., it's anywhere from 2-4 days, maybe longer if it takes a little while for the coroner to release the body, etc. There's no discussion between the two about when exactly the service is taking place--later the same day after the conversation, tomorrow, what?

Any way, even though there's no definitive answers, this still helps because now I can see exactly how much wiggle room I have in order to decide some of these things for myself.

[justTripn]

I thought Trip (Connor) looked awfully, convincingly sad in the scene at the conference, especially since he was just part of the background. He looked terrible, as if he had been crying earlier. I-was-crying-before-but-I'm-not-crying-now is a hard look to pull off, I would think. I thought it was another instance of great acting.

I will retell these stories from the Cleveland conference. At the Cleveland conference someone asked if there were two scripts: one in which the baby lives and one in which the baby dies. Connor answers with like this low voice, "No that baby was always meant to die. Sorry, that sounded terrible. But there you have it." He seemed so sad as he answered. I commented at the time that it seemed that story line got to him as much as it got to us.

Then at the Cherry Hill NJ conference, Connor said that the day he filmed that scene he had just learned that his wife was pregnant. So the whole scene really did upset him. After they filmed the crying over the babie's death scene he really couldn't pull it together and went off by himself because he couldn't stop crying and Jolene finally got worried and came over and asked him if anything was wrong and he told her then that his wife was pregnant.

[Bether6074]

Such a sweetie. I remember that. His little guy (10-11-05, I believe) must be growing up fast.