Relationship questions

[justTripn]

When I first got the DVDs and watched Home I was struck by how deep each of them were in "like" and probably love. I think something big was about to happen. In my Home story, "Tour of the Fircaves," (I should rename it "Tour of the Fireplains") the status of the relationship in Trip's mind was he was blissfully happy at how well things were going finally, just enjoying the ride, and he assumed they had all the time in the world and would take it to the next level after a talk that might spontaneously happen anytime, especially on a vacation, now that things were going so wonderfully.) Then . . . (que ominous music: DUM! DUM! DUM!) Koss comes to call.

[pdsldl]

That's what frustrated me about the way they handled TnT from Home on. It seemed as if the writers thought they needed to manufacture angst for them when it was a natural part of an interspecies relationship taking place on a starship between Starfleet Officers involving a Vulcan bond.

[Aquarius]

It's in E2 at the beginning:

TUCKER: Come on, you've got to admit you've been avoiding me ever since the two of us, you know, when we...
T'POL: Had sexual relations.
TUCKER: That's real romantic when you put it that way.
T'POL: I told you, what happened was an exploration, not the prelude to an intimate relationship.
TUCKER: I never said I wanted a relationship. <backtracking to save face, anyone???>
T'POL: Neither did I. <but she sure looks upset by what he said>>


then later:
TUCKER: Only in the Expanse could I have a son who's nearly three times my age. Who would have thought you and me, huh? Lorian says we're going to be married in a traditional Vulcan ceremony. It's going to take me weeks to learn to pronounce the vows. You know where we're going to have our honeymoon? Cargo bay three. He says I'll fill it up with sand that we dug up from a passing asteroid. I'm even supposed to (laughs) I'm even supposed to manufacture a palm tree.
T'POL: It's ridiculous to assume those events are going to happen. Hand me the flux coupler.
TUCKER: Aren't you at all curious about how you and I are supposed to end up together?
T'POL: The fact that our counterparts married doesn't mean that we'll do the same.
TUCKER: You're afraid to admit that under the right circumstances you could have feelings for me. Maybe you have them already.
T'POL: I should have known this was a mistake.
TUCKER: What?
T'POL: Exploring human sexuality with you. You're obviously unable to have a physical relationship without developing an emotional attachment.
TUCKER: You know, all the other women on board must have been taken, because I can't imagine any other reason why I would have married someone as stubborn as you.

Clearly, he's pursuing and she's retreating. But he's pushing pretty hard for someone who has no clue he's 'in love'. I mean, otherwise, why push? It would just be cruel, and Trip doesn't get cruel until he's got hurt feelings of his own to protect.

Yeah, that first bit is exactly what I was thinking of.

As for the pushing, it seems he does have hurt feelings of his own to protect. We know from Sim that Trip had feelings for her, so it started not too long after they entered the Expanse. So it's highly likely that he does love her, but he could just as easily be trying to talk himself out of believing he has that deep of feeling for her because she keeps shutting him down at every turn, even though he suspects the feeling is actually mutual. That would hurt and confuse anyone.

And yeah, the pushing gets kind of cruel, but sometimes that's what love is. There's an un-pretty side, and Trip and T'Pol show us that sometimes. I think that's why I like them so much.

[Alelou]

I should clarify. I don't think the pushing is cruel. I think it WOULD be cruel if he didn't want her -- then it would just be toying with her. But as it is, he's doing it because he can't help himself, even though it mean he gets shot down on a fairly regularly basis. And there's just too much risk involved in that, to my mind, for him to be doing this without knowing that he means it. That doesn't mean he's thought ahead to little half-Vulcan babies, but he's GOT to know his heart is involved. (And after E2 he sure as hell HAS been forced to think ahead to little half-Vulcan babies.)

[Aquarius]

^Okay, gotcha. That makes sense.

[JadziaKathryn]

That's what frustrated me about the way they handled TnT from Home on. It seemed as if the writers thought they needed to manufacture angst for them when it was a natural part of an interspecies relationship taking place on a starship between Starfleet Officers involving a Vulcan bond.

Yes! It was like they were afraid to show a real relationship, so we got Manufactured Angst (TM) galore.

[Linda]

It seems like in Star Trek, and not just the ENT series, canon shies away from mature and ongoing couple relationships. There are lots of courtship episodes in ST, usually a one episode relationship that ends before it gets started because the characters put their Starfleet careers first. But heck, there are lots of non-ST TV series based on families and ongoing couples and they were successful series. Why can't we have at least one ST couple facing the dangers of the universe together? I think maybe the producers of Star Trek still think the main ST audience is adolescent males. I think the audience became much wider a long time ago.

[Asso]

As always Linda is capable of explaining very simply a great deal of things and impressions.
Her mind is... logical.

[JadziaKathryn]

Well, at least the Paris/Torres relationship was done well sometimes. ("Lineage" remains one of my favorite episodes ever - "Day of Honor," "Drive" and "Prophecy" are also high up there.) Unfortunately the relationship wasn't always handled as well as it could've been.

And yet, they managed to get to that mature ongoing couple stage eventually...

[Alelou]

I think that may be a sign that Voyager wasn't under a lot of ratings pressure from Paramount, compared to what Enterprise had to deal with as UPN imploded. I think they were moving more in that direction ... I suspect the relatively minor characters Miles and Keiko on TNG and later DS9 constituted their first experiment with it, and they were well-received, weren't they? I know I appreciated that story line as a break from all the coy sh*t (for as long as I watched it, anyway -- I petered out on DS9 pretty early).

[Linda]

Yes, I guess there were some good couple relationships with the Keiko/Miles and the Paris/Torres couples. And I guess you could include Captain Sisko and his second wife.