Did T'Pol NEED the Trellium D?

[crystalswolf]

WG, I don't think it was ever stated one way or another with Spock's parents (movie or TOS). We just see them at various points in their lives and that's it.

Think if TnT were older, happily married with adult children and we only saw them then and there (no backstory). Would we know about their ups and downs that led them to that happy marriage? How would we know about the Neuropressure, seduction, TD, that he tried to get away from her, etc.?

I kind'a disagree with the idea that Vulcans would not engage in any sexual activity before marriage. Perhaps most wouldn't but scientists, especially, I could see experimenting if they thought they could shield themselves effectively from telepathically connecting through touch. Why would a scientist have such a hang up about sex (a natural function) as long as it is not culturally ingrained to be taboo (don't think it's been said that sex is taboo among Vulcans).

That being said, for the record no, I don't think T'Pol was just experimenting with Trip. I think at some point she was thinking about experimenting but then just used that excuse with him to run away from the situation.

[WarpGirl]

Well a culture that betroths children at age 7 probably would have strong sexual taboos. Not because of the physical process but it's canon that very few Vulcans can sheild themselves well enough to just go about touching without serious reprecussions. Even then there are always traces of the contact. For example Sarek said that when he melds with someone an imprint of the person remains with him. In fact Picard uses that imprint to help Spock greive. That's just touching the face, sex... Well that's much more. Even if a Vulcan could stop the bonding process, it's unlikely that it would be comfortable for them to be so overwhelmed multiple times in casual relationships. Unless you're a predator like Tolaris, I'm willing to bet the average Vulcan finds comfort in being momogomous.

[Alelou]

However, I propose the following alternate scenario: After the Seleya - T'Pol's got neural damage that makes not be able to suppress her emotions as well as before- though the emotions she feels are real. Phlox puts her on meds to control it - but she notices that as the meds wear off - she starts feeling things for Trip that she likes - so she goes off her meds, in he same way bi polars go off meds so they can "feel" things. That way, she keeps her agency - wanting to feel things for Trip - but it's more of a mental illness metaphor (Vulcan style). It would have been more original and less degrading.

Maybe. But after Pan'ar the idea that T'Pol also manages to come down with the mental illness of the week begins to seem a bit hackneyed. And I think there are a lot more pitfalls in terms of unintentionally offending people over a mental illness than with a drug addiction -- there you merely risk annoying people who want their character not to have that kind of weakness. Not to mention mental illness is generally a lifelong issue, not something you can 'get over' and leave behind in the fourth season when you've had enough of it. I also think that given the kind of wartime mentality they were trying to create in the Expanse arc, having somebody cope with a drug addiction made sense.

All of these make interesting AU ideas, though.

[WarpGirl]

I don't find the idea offensive. Her brain was damaged by a poison. And wasn't the pa'nar supposedly brought on by devient behavior and a mental illness? I'm slightly confused. In any case didn't they say the after affects of the Trell-D were perminent?

[crystalswolf]

Well a culture that betroths children at age 7 probably would have strong sexual taboos. Not because of the physical process but it's canon that very few Vulcans can sheild themselves well enough to just go about touching without serious reprecussions. Even then there are always traces of the contact. For example Sarek said that when he melds with someone an imprint of the person remains with him. In fact Picard uses that imprint to help Spock greive. That's just touching the face, sex... Well that's much more. Even if a Vulcan could stop the bonding process, it's unlikely that it would be comfortable for them to be so overwhelmed multiple times in casual relationships. Unless you're a predator like Tolaris, I'm willing to bet the average Vulcan finds comfort in being momogomous.

I just saw arranging marriages so early so that their male (or female if you believe in female pon-farr) has a mate for when that time comes. Does it matter if he/she has sex before they marry? The arrangement seems to be about the union and not so much the virginal state of the couple. Can you imagine a Vulcan making a big fuss ("My mate is not a virgin!") like many cultures do/have done on Earth?

I could be wrong about this but I've always thought mind melds were different than general touching. Touch seems to allow a Vulcan to pick up on small things while mind melds share actual thoughts, connecting their minds completely.

When I said I could see Vulcan scientific minds willing to experiment, I didn't mean several.

[Alelou]

I'm glad you don't find it offensive. However, people who struggle in their families with the ongoing, exhausting reality of mental illness and the difficulties of maintaining proper medication -- something that can present ongoing challenges throughout one's life -- may find a breezy abbreviated science fiction TV version of that just a bit annoying. A realistic presentation might be quite intriguing -- but something tells me that's not what we go to Star Trek for, and if it is we're bound to be disappointed. If anything, in Star Trek we'd hope that by then someone can just wave a medical scanner at you, bombard you with a little theta radiation, and suddenly life is good again.

[honeybee]

However, people who struggle in their families with the ongoing, exhausting reality of mental illness and the difficulties of maintaining proper medication -- something that can present ongoing challenges throughout one's life -- may find a breezy abbreviated science fiction TV version of that just a bit annoying.

Well, I think people who struggle with drug addiction their whole lives could make the same claim. And you don't get over an addictive personality any more than you get over mental illness. Some would argue drug addiction is a form of mental illness. As someone with an alcoholic father and a profoundly mentally ill brother who goes off his meds all the time - I would not have been offended to see the subject treated - if treated with respect and good writing. I mean, I floated the idea based on my brother's last episode (last summer) of going off his meds and his six week stint in a hospital. So, I'm aware of what the families with mental illness go through as well as drug/alcohol addiction.

Trek can handle sensitive issues - I really enjoyed Alzheimer's metaphor TNG did with Sarek - which was just a one off episode and quite respectful. I think it's all in the execution.

[WarpGirl]

Sorry Alelou I didn't mean to come off as callous.

CW Well T'Pring was no virgin at Spock's Pon Farr but I got the sense that it was something rare and not embraced. I mean this is a culture that kills for their women, so other men can't have them. You don't have to be in Pon Farr for your fiancee to call Kal'i'fee. So I very much doubt that unless there is a good reason both men and women on Vulcan are cavaleer about their virginity. Of course as times modernize and if the custom of betrothal dies out, virginity might cease to be a concern. If the imprinting thing can be avoided. Because why bond with a person with another's imprint? Especially when you live for 200 years.

Good point Honeybee I was thinking something simular. They did hint that Archer was going through some PTSD of a form.

[crystalswolf]

CW Well T'Pring was no virgin at Spock's Pon Farr but I got the sense that it was something rare and not embraced. I mean this is a culture that kills for their women, so other men can't have them. You don't have to be in Pon Farr for your fiancee to call Kal'i'fee. So I very much doubt that unless there is a good reason both men and women on Vulcan are cavaleer about their virginity. Of course as times modernize and if the custom of betrothal dies out, virginity might cease to be a concern. If the imprinting thing can be avoided. Because why bond with a person with another's imprint? Especially when you live for 200 years.

I don't think it could've been rare if they had kunut kalifee, and well known, in the first place. It seems like the practice would have died out or forgotten by all except a few if used so rarely. I didn't get the feeling that anyone worried over T'Pring's virginity. They just didn't like that she chose Kirk as her champion for many reasons.

Pon farr is not required for the challenge but marriage is. I'm not talking about sex outside of the marriage. Before marriage the adult Vulcan may have that freedom. Most Vulcans may not have sex with any others just because they do not see the logic in it (it's for procreation so why do it for any other reason). But some may be curious about the act like any other science experiment.

[WarpGirl]

Well anything is possible. But I don't see how it would be all that tolerated by people who are touch telepaths and might re-live there mate's pasts with other people. It's that pesky imprinting thing that gets me. I'm certainly not saying you're wrong, I don't know of anything that says canonically virginity is important for Vulcans. However if it isn't, to me it doesn't fit in with the vaules we do know of.

[crystalswolf]

Yup, I guess that's why I love looking for those little holes in between what's been established (obviously). Sometimes I even end up playing devil's advocate.

[WarpGirl]

I guess the only thing I'm confused on is how does it all relate to this topic?

[crystalswolf]

The idea that T'Pol (or any Vulcan) would require an extraordinary reason for having sex with anyone other than a mate. Would she have eventually had sex with Trip without neuropressure, TD, etc.? Whether sex outside of marriage is taboo influences how she would approach their relationship.

[WarpGirl]

Sorry. My brian might be fried, it's late and I'm in pain. Well I think it's pretty clear that sex isn't something taken lightly by your average Vulcan. Tuvok revolted at the idea of resolving Pon Farr with a hologram of his own wife. And even though he had the oppertunity of having several women offer him a relationship during his time away from her, he never took advantage. To me at least, that shows that Vulcans value fidelity. And really wouldn't betreying your betrothed be a case for serious consequences down the line? In T'Pol's case she believed she burned all bridges with home when she left for the Expanse. And as far as she knew her wedding to Koss was canceled. There was no issue of betreyal.

Like I said there is no source that says "A Vulcan must be a virgin at the time of marriage" Koss didn't seem to take note of it. But then I really don't think he had anymore affection for her than she did for him. But I have to say with all of what we do know I'd say that while premarital sex might not be forbidden, it certainly isn't encouraged as perfectly fine and acceptable behavior. If it is practiced people would sure keep quiet about it. I don't see how you can make a case for it being ok when 99.999999999% shaking hands is not ok.

Personally I think the reason T'Pol freaked out so badly is because she knew that for humans (especially Trip given his history) are casual about sex. She probably wasn't raised to think so, scientist or not.

[crystalswolf]

Pain? I hope nothing serious!

I think we agree that Vulcans do value fidelity. I just think they may also view sex as they would any other natural act, through the lens of personal logic and not through doctrine. A married Vulcan would ask the question "Why would I procreate with someone other than my mate?" An unmarried Vulcan would not have any desire to procreate but just want to know first hand about the act.

I don't see any Vulcan approaching the experiment with candlelight and silken pillows, but I can see it being very cold, awkward, and painfully logical. Especially since they have to close themselves off telepathically. Just saw an early episode of Big Bang theory and the ep where Leonard and Leslie Winkle kiss seems like the perfect example!

Hand shaking... I think that's a little different because a person may be expected to shake hands with several people in one room. May even be expected to shake hands with every person to enter the room. Makes sense that they would avoid it completely. Although I think there were instances where Vulcans shook hands with certain people.