Major Rant : Angst

[WarpGirl]

Asso I've never even seen that word so I don't know what that means.

[Escriba]

Now, Asso, you're putting words on my mouth that I've never said. I never talked about angst! I was talking about wacky humor inside family, you usually don't have beautiful picnics in paradise landscapes, what you have is rain and all the family stuck in one car while your mother is grilling sardines while one of your aunts covers her (and the grill) with a parasol and you suddenly say "daddy, I want to pee" and your father looks outside and then at the bottle and he ponders!

Complete fluff is as wrong as excessive angst: it has no point. A story needs conflict, conflict doesn't mean angst, it means that something happens at all. That's why you can only write one-shots with fluff.

In addition, I have to say that, honestly, even if I like Humour, you and evidently aren't thinking the same about that: The Cursor is a very good writer, but Mom and Dad and Self Sealing Stem Bolts is not my personal cup of tea.

Really? I think it's hilarious.

[WarpGirl]

Here's what I want to know... When did the word conflict get the same definition as angst? They don't have the same definition at all.

[Escriba]

Now, maybe we should clarify what we're talking about.

According to Merriam-Webster dictionary angst (that comes from German) means "a feeling of anxiety, apprehension, or insecurity <teenage angst>" Apparently, in its original sense means "fear."

OK, this doesn't clarify anything.

The Free Online Dictionary says that this angst is "often accompanied by depression." But it doesn't say if this depression is from the characters or from the readers. Since the act of reading is an empathic one, I'm going to assume it means both.

Let's dig some more... the Fanfiction Terms from Shippers 'r' We says that "Angst fanfiction are stories that have heavy and sometimes depressing themes, and have the characters suffering emotionally (and sometimes physically) in some way. A story that deals with a character's death would be considered angst. A story that deals with a romantic or friendship break-up would be angst. Any story that has dark themes or issues, is classified as angst. The hurt/comfort formula is a form of angst. So if you prefer to read stories with emotionally lighter themes, stay away from those designated as angst."

Well, a definition and a warning. So, we can assume that if the characters doesn't suffer any kind of suffering, then it isn't angst. Which leaves the number of fics in... Mmmm... Zero?

Seriously now, I think the problem of a fic, of any fictional work, in fact, is that it must be like an orchestral piece: it should have a little of everything. To paraphrase Minisinoo (who is one of the best, if not the best): "Just as it's dull to listen to a monotone "symphony" (never was a fan of Philip Glass), it's dull to read a story of any lenght that's all of a type -- all angst, all romance, all dialogue, etc. Good (longer) stories will balance humor and pathos, romance and other relationships, action and dialogue, etc."

So, I have to conclude that everyone was right and wrong at the same time

[WarpGirl]

Oh that was AWESOME! And it made my point.

[Escriba]

I think this precise theme is beautifully explained in this wonderful essay by Minisinoo (it's worth reading it):

Why Mundane Grace is Powerful (there is a reference to Ultimate X-Men but you don't have to know about it to enjoy the essay.)

[pdsldl]

That's a good question. Conflict does not = angst but some people do seem to equate the two. Maybe because life is full of both. I like to think life is an ongoing drama full of highly emotional moments both good and bad. TnT would have had to face both. There would be no way to avoid it. Having bad things happen doesn't mean they aren't overall happy with their life or that they necessarily hurt or ignore each other. They have misunderstandings and make missteps that hopefully allow for growth as individuals and a couple. Some writers and readers seem to get off on pushing the happy, conflict, pain, or suffering to unrealistic places. We are dealing with Sci-fi which in and of itself is not real but with TnT we're dealing with what are supposed to be real people in an advanced version of our universe with other species not some super human creatures who can leap tall buildings in a single bound or just let go of horrific happenings by making love so all's well the end's well. That's where I have a problem with writers. When they make things so good or so bad that it's beyond what can possibly be real. If there is angst there has to be a reason for it and there has to be resolution and growth that is real not contrived to be some totally unbelievable happily ever after. If they are extremely happy it's not always and forever. Escriba is right that's not life that's a fairy tale.

[WarpGirl]

Now X-Men is ANGST. Particularly Wolverine, how Phenox chose that sissy boy over him I will NEVER understand. pdsldl Bravo!

[Asso]

Now, Asso, you're putting words on my mouth that I've never said. I never talked about angst! I was talking about wacky humor inside family, you usually don't have beautiful picnics in paradise landscapes, what you have is rain and all the family stuck in one car while your mother is grilling sardines while one of your aunts covers her (and the grill) with a parasol and you suddenly say "daddy, I want to pee" and your father looks outside and then at the bottle and he ponders!

Complete fluff is as wrong as excessive angst: it has no point. A story needs conflict, conflict doesn't mean angst, it means that something happens at all. That's why you can only write one-shots with fluff.

You're right. You never said that.
And, for real, you are a polyhedric writer. Nevertheless, I got the impression I adumbrated in my words from the stories i read from you.
I beg your pardon.
But, if I go reading what you wrote above, I think, someway, we are in agreement, even if , probably, we don't have the same ideas about conflict.

In addition, I have to say that, honestly, even if I like Humour, you and evidently aren't thinking the same about that: The Cursor is a very good writer, but Mom and Dad and Self Sealing Stem Bolts is not my personal cup of tea.

Really? I think it's hilarious.

Humour has many, many nuances.

Asso I've never even seen that word so I don't know what that means.

On average. Generally.

[WarpGirl]

Oh OK Thanks for the new word it might come in handy if I play Scrabble. But I have to admit that once again I'm confused, I've noticed in your reviews you tend to gush over "perfect" stories more than conflicted ones. OK everything's cool now.

[Asso]

That's a good question. Conflict does not = angst but some people do seem to equate the two. Maybe because life is full of both. I like to think life is an ongoing drama full of highly emotional moments both good and bad. TnT would have had to face both. There would be no way to avoid it. Having bad things happen doesn't mean they aren't overall happy with their life or that they necessarily hurt or ignore each other. They have misunderstandings and make missteps that hopefully allow for growth as individuals and a couple. Some writers and readers seem to get off on pushing the happy, conflict, pain, or suffering to unrealistic places. We are dealing with Sci-fi which in and of itself is not real but with TnT we're dealing with what are supposed to be real people in an advanced version of our universe with other species not some super human creatures who can leap tall buildings in a single bound or just let go of horrific happenings by making love so all's well the end's well. That's where I have a problem with writers. When they make things so good or so bad that it's beyond what can possibly be real. If there is angst there has to be a reason for it and there has to be resolution and growth that is real not contrived to be some totally unbelievable happily ever after. If they are extremely happy it's not always and forever. Escriba is right that's not life that's a fairy tale.

I not deny minimally what you said, but I love this:

Readers, friends, if you turn these pages
Put your prejudice aside,
For, really, there's nothing here that's outrageous,
Nothing sick, or bad — or contagious.
Not that I sit here glowing with pride
For my book: all you'll find is laughter:
That's all the glory my heart is after,
Seeing how sorrow eats you, defeats you.
I'd rather write about laughing than crying,
For laughter makes men human, and courageous.

BE HAPPY!

(From the introduction to the series: The Life of Gargantua and of Pantagruel)

And,WarpGirl, I hope this can be a response to your obsrvation.

[WarpGirl]

I agree that happiness like that is attainable, but it cannot be constant. Asso Have you ever seen the play/movie "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum?" I think that would be the perfect thing for you. OK going to DL the music now. It's a musical comedy.

[pdsldl]

Asso I wish life could be full of laughter and good things always but it's not. It's a teeter totter balancing between good and bad. Hopefully there's enough good to help one get through the bad. I write about the hardships of TnT's bond because it's what I see as being real. It's what my experience has taught me that life is about. Love, laughter, pain, sorrow, conflict, angst, fear and all the rest. I read comedy and fun stuff to relieve stress and to feel good but reading and writing about conflict and angst helps me and others to deal with our own emotional selves better. I can't let out all that I feel or I'd risk hurting people in my life so I put it on paper or I release some of the internal pressure by feeling a character's pain/angst when I read a story. I do the same when I listen to music. I tend to sing (loudly) to the music I listen to and that tends to release pent-up emotions. It's a coping mechanism and fortunately it's one that can produce some pretty creative works for the rest of us to enjoy.

[WarpGirl]

I so get where you're coming from, that's why I write happy wonderful fluffy chapters, and chapters of sorrow. That's life. And I also Sing at the top of my lungs, and when I am truly totally pissed off out comes Pat Benitar and Evanesence comes out until I'm nearly deaf.

[Escriba]

I think the thing, to go back to Kotik's first complain, is that if there is too much angst in our fandom. As michelle said in one of the post, TnT, compared to other fandoms, doesn't have much angst. And that is because anybody that has been in more than one fandom knows that when angst is handled maturely, it isn't so much angst.

I'll explain, the problem with angst (usually) is that is written by teens. Teens tend to see everything in an angsty light because... well, because they're teens. They're that extreme. They think that relationships have to be all about passion and suffering and everlasting and sheer stupidity.

But they aren't many teens in Star Trek: Enterprise. So the angst is not exactly the same. Yes, there is angst but there is not so much stupid angst. This last angst type can come from three things (I'm talking about my experience in ff.net, not about TriSilk):

a) The author doesn't know to write, so s/he leans on cliches.
b) The author may has surpassed the adolescency but s/he is a teen in his/her heart. An immature.
c) The author is idiot.

What is stupid angst? you may ask. Well, stupid angst is when the characters are suffering, but they're suffering because they're idiots and act as teens. Look, Trip and T'Pol have their problems and make mistakes, but they aren't fifteen. I can bear some kind of incommunication, but not so much incommunication as I've come to expect in twelve years old people passing notes in class.

But what I really, really, REALLY can't stand is that kind of angst that comes from a specific problem between Trip ad T'Pol that the author resolves, say, in chapter 5 and then comes again in chapter 10 and TnT behave exactly the same way because they learnt nothing the first time. See, that isn't good writing, that's a soap-opera.

So yes, I can bear angst (to an extend) if it serves for Trip and T'Pol to grow up and makes the plot progress.

On the other side, there is something in this fandom (again, talking about ff.net) that puzzles me and it's those stories with Trip and T'Pol married, acting as a married couple would act if their actions were written by a five years old child. And the most surprising thing is that if you read the author's profile, you'll discover that s/he (it's usually a "she" but anyway) is very grown up and married How can you be married and write about a married couple in so unbelievable way? I'm not talking about "happy marriage", I'm talking about writing about a married couple in a way that you know isn't real.