"Divergent Paths" Discussion

[Thot]

Honestly, I can't think of any that I've read that go this route. *shrug*

Okay, I concretize: In the wast majority of fanfiction, you have either the 'new-understanding-between-Trip-and-Archer-after-starting-a-relationship-with-T'Pol', which ends in Archer bashing, or the author acts, as if there wasn't any shift in atmosphere during season 3/4.

Not really satisfying from my point of view.

But then, I generally avoid fics that bash Archer because, as much as I generally didn't like the character as portrayed on the show, I don't have the kneejerk loathing of the character some people seem to have.

Believe you aren't missing anything!


BTW:
Great 50 chapter! The analogy between her bonding with him and Ah'Len's impregnating and how she had given him a hard time for this, while she herself had done nearly the same to him... Just great *lol*

[Pitseleh]

Yes, I definitely cracked up laughing when the bowl of rocks was mentioned.

The thing I am enjoying the most is that the bond seems to be firmly in place even when they haven't had sex yet. The misunderstandings created by the "When two Vulcans mate..." are bothersome, and to believe that the bond itself was established because of the events in Harbinger is ridiculous. The theory that proximity and intimacy of the non-sexual kind, developing this sense of trust and even affection for one another creates the bond is far more belivable, and far better developed than anything we ever saw on screen.

[WarpGirl]

Hey Rigil My internet connection is a living H-E- double-hockey sticks so I've missed a ton of stuff...

You just made my point. "Jim" is how James T. Kirk thinks of himself and "Trip" is how Charles Tucker III thinks of himself. "Charles" is his grandpa's name, not his. You and I may not think of it as intimate to use a person's preferred nickname, but to a Vulcan? Seems to say a whole lot to me.

I see your point, however I'd just like to point out Spock wasn't Kirk's mate, T'Pol is Trip's mate. I could see her wanting something that is only hers. Vulcans are posessive you know.

OK I missed two chapters so I am now all caught up... OMG WOW! OK I love Daniels the character, however screwing with timelines usually gives me migranes. You did managed to write screwing with timelines and I understood it and I absolutely loved it. BTW I have never seen Daniels written so perfectly, if he comes back I'll cheer. Heck I wanted to ask him out for dinner. Loved the Future Tense references too! I am hoping this continues through the rest of the story. How were you inspired to do it.

Next chapter... As an old pro at being in mortal peril and having to be cared for much like Trip was I gotta say you know your stuff. All through it I was thinking "Yep been there... Yeah that's my mom and sister doing all that stuff for me... God poor Girl my heart is breaking..." You really hit the nail on the head. I love the way you've handled the Bond and how you've managed to have it make sense. I wonder how Trip will react though... I mean I could see him doing a T'Pol freak out!

[Rigil Kent]

The thing I am enjoying the most is that the bond seems to be firmly in place even when they haven't had sex yet.

Hell, he hasn't even really kissed her yet.

But yeah, I thought it'd be amusing if the bond was well in place before they ever got horizontal, sort of a "marriage before sex" thing with them not even realizing they were getting married until after the fact, just an uncomfortable facet of Vulcan physiology.

H

You just made my point. "Jim" is how James T. Kirk thinks of himself and "Trip" is how Charles Tucker III thinks of himself. "Charles" is his grandpa's name, not his. You and I may not think of it as intimate to use a person's preferred nickname, but to a Vulcan? Seems to say a whole lot to me.

I see your point, however I'd just like to point out Spock wasn't Kirk's mate, T'Pol is Trip's mate. I could see her wanting something that is only hers. Vulcans are posessive you know.

Why is that relevant? He asked her to call him Trip. As Dinah said much earlier, if she continued to use Charles (a name he doesn't seem all that enamored of), it's disrespecting his wishes and "unintentionally failing to acknowledge the independent man he has become." She already has something that is "only hers" and that's Trip himself. I guess I simply don't understand your opposition to hearing her call him Trip - that, to me, says a whole lot more about the level of trust and intimacy between them than if she ran around using Charles (and he instinctively looked around for his dad or grandad every time she did so) or used one of the cliched Vulcan pet names so common in fanfic. T'Pol is, I believe, wise enough to recognize that he sees her using this nickname as a precious gift to him, whereas if she called him "Charles," it would seem like he's in trouble again and being yelled at by Mom (I figure his dad probably encouraged Trip to do naughty things and rebuild the jetski so it's 30% faster and so on.)

[Thot]

Concerning the Trip vs. Charles topic:

I'm comfortable with both solutions, because they have advantages and disadvantages. You can choose one of them, as long as it fits into the rest of the story. The idea of her calling his real name has a special sound to him as well as the plot that she calls him by his nickname as a concession/acknowledgement to his liking are both nice elements of a character developement.

It's a free choice - constricted by the situation of the story - and not something that it is in general right and the other out of character.

For example in Rigil's "Divergent Paths" it was a good choice, that she at first calls him Charles since the rank seemed irreasonable after they realized to be indefinitely stranded and later makes a step further to Trip.
But on the other hand she could have said Mr. Tucker at first and than stepped to Charles, since nicknames aren't logical for Vulcans.... *hmmm*

I think, in the end it underlines my point: It's a question of atmosphere and personal preference than of right and wrong.


Concerning the bond establish without mating:
Besides the fact that the idea of simply mating causing a bond seems ridiculous, because not later than after seven years every Vulcan would be bonded again
I always saw this as a combination of both: sex and intimacy.
And the idea of a bond without any mating involved: okay.
In addition you could point out at T'Pol's explanation to Trip that this could be one of the reasons, why Vulcans don't touch: Too much touch + hold affection could accidently trigger it.

[Transwarp]

Concerning the bond establish without mating:
Besides the fact that the idea of simply mating causing a bond seems ridiculous, because not later than after seven years every Vulcan would be bonded again

Totally agree. I have never been a member of the 'sex equals bond' camp. And if a bond IS formed by the act of sex, at least make it take more than ONE time. (Which is why I can't buy the theory that TnT's bond originated that one night in 'Harbinger'.)

[Rigil Kent]

Well, to be honest, I always presumed that TnT were sexually active after dealing with the alien Nazis up to "Home."

[Alelou]

I agree. If not, that whole trip to Vulcan seems really weird. (Well, weirder.)

[WarpGirl]

Oh no not that again... Where is the evidence of that? Nevermind... Good-Golly Miss Molly it's just a name . I don't object to T'Pol using Trip. I just think that it being considered intimate is weird. Everybody including the alien-of-the week uses it. I don't think its wrong or OOC, I just don't think its intimate. Most people have a special name they use for a loved one that nobody else uses. I don't think Trip would fuss too much if T'Pol wanted to use Charles because only she would call him that. In the end who cares as long as they're having an adult relationship?

Quite honestly I'm surprised that out of all I said that was the only thing that got focused on. I mean I did mention that the description of Trip's care was accurate and very touching. I did say I wanted to take Daniels on a date, doesn't that merrit anything?

[Rigil Kent]

Oh no not that again... Where is the evidence of that?

Are you talking about the notion that TnT were having sex post-Alien Nazis, pre-Home? If so, I'd point simply to Trip's question of her about what she'd told her mother about him. That seems very much like a boyfriend kind of question that it simply makes it seem like they were being intimate. Just their general interactions up to Trip meeting T'Les implied a deeper relationship - otherwise, what was the point of her taking him home to me the T'Mom? (Especially given her chiding remarks way back when during "Unexpected.") Not to mention, they were technically violating regs (her being the first officer and his de facto senior officer, no matter what people may think about whether she should have had the job or not), so advertising it would be a good way to get court martialed or just transferred.

Everybody including the alien-of-the week uses it.

I call shenanigans. As far as I can recall, Phlox never uses "Trip" - he's always CDR or Mister Tucker. Ditto that with Soval (despite him getting along with Trip during the Vulcan arc), nor, if I recall correctly, does Shran ever use the nickname. As Trip say in "Broken Bow," his friends call him Trip. And T'Pol now.

Most people have a special name they use for a loved one that nobody else uses.

Uh ... no. In none of my relationships have I had a "special name" for my SO that nobody else used, and I don't of any of my friends who have done anything like that either. Besides, "special names" are illogical, right? Why would she have a special name for him when doing so would be utterly illogical?

I don't think Trip would fuss too much if T'Pol wanted to use Charles because only she would call him that.

Given that he specifically (and, in this story, repeatedly) asked her to use "Trip," I think it would cause a little bit of a tension between them.

Quite honestly I'm surprised that out of all I said that was the only thing that got focused on.

I'm focusing on it because I was the one who asked the initial question about the evolution of how T'Pol thought of/spoke to him. Your other issues were basically a review, which I've been trying to avoid responding to here since this thread was intended to be more a Discussion thread, not a Review thread.

[Asso]

Oh no not that again... Where is the evidence of that?

But should they have shouted it aloud? Frankly, I can't understand why such a evident thing has to be denyed. But what is there bad in that?

[panyasan]

Everybody including the alien-of-the week uses it.

I call shenanigans. As far as I can recall, Phlox never uses "Trip" - he's always CDR or Mister Tucker. Ditto that with Soval (despite him getting along with Trip during the Vulcan arc), nor, if I recall correctly, does Shran ever use the nickname. As Trip say in "Broken Bow," his friends call him Trip. And T'Pol now.

And if I recall correctly, only his closest friends: Jonathan Archer and Malcolm Reed call him Trip. Also judging from Trips reaction to T'Pol calling him on the show Trip for the first time, makes it clear it's not just a name for him. Trip is the person he feels he is deep inside. I like that how T'Pol adresses Trip shows the development of the relationship in Div.Paths and personally I do find Trip much more intimate then Charles, especially coming from T'Pols lips. It's more a feeling then I can simply explain.

[WarpGirl]

The Cogenator, Princess Fishstick, that girl who liked Ice Cream, Kov, and others all used Trip. I'm sorry are they all his intimate friends? Well fishstick I guess is... Sorry I think we're both right ok. And all of my friends and family have "lovers only names" I had a "lovers only" name for my ex and he for me. Only I hated mine... I tried not to "review" I just get excited jeeze! I did ask you what inspired that brilliant Daniels chapter, so what did?

As for the "What did you tell your mom?" question I thought it was more along the lines of Did you tell your mother we slept together? And if you did am I going to have a very pissed off mother after me? Not necessarily "does mom know I'm your boyfriend?"

I know I'm just a girl, and not a particularly knowledgable one about stuff like this. But I would never just jump back into bed with someone after something like E2! I mean he also says in Home he didn't know he loved her until she tells him she's marrying Koss. So either he's lying... Possible... Or the entire relationship is more screwed up than even my sick mind can contemplate. And I'll even say that the MU one was probably healthier.

[Rigil Kent]

And all of my friends and family have "lovers only names"

That's anecdotal evidence, though, which cannot be accurately applied to all or even "most" cases. Just because its common in your family, doesn't mean its common in all families. Since every one of the family members I have on my late father's side are alcoholics and racists, anecdotally, I too should be an alcoholic and a racist. We can't apply things we see to everyone else.

I did ask you what inspired that brilliant Daniels chapter, so what did?

I needed to convey to the readers that Daniels was the one responsible for this "divergent" timeline when he sabotaged the shuttlepod's engines, but due to the constraints of my writing voice (3rd Person Limited), the only way I could convey that was from a Daniels' POV. From that point, it just became a matter of figuring out what else I wanted to relate (like how he had hoped it would temper Archer's "damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead" kind of mentality, and how that had backfired; or how Travis stepped up and became more important in the Grand Scheme of Things; or even my subtle nod toward classic red shirts of TOS through Reed.) There is also a little bit of "Legion of Super-Heroes" influence there, as there were more than a couple of issues of that comic where the titular characters traveled through time in a Time Bubble thingy. One thing I haven't quite been able to touch on yet is my idea of Daniels' competency. If you go off the show, he really comes off as an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing. I have some plans to tackle that down the road.

But I would never just jump back into bed with someone after something like E2!

E2 took place a while before "Home," though, and after the incident with the E2-prise, TnT were certainly getting along better. Hell, in "Countdown" (my all-time favorite ENT episode), they actually made a date. In front of the captain. I'm pretty sure that there was a substantial amount of time that passed between dealing with the alien Nazis and the beginning of "Home," so it seems entirely believable that they've resumed their sexual relationship by that point.

And I'll even say that the MU one was probably healthier.

I sincerely hope you're being facetious with that. There was nothing healthy about the MU relationship. Zip, zero, nada.

[honeybee]

I sincerely hope you're being facetious with that. There was nothing healthy about the MU relationship. Zip, zero, nada.

I think I can speak for most of the authors who have written MU fics, including myself, and say - nothing healthy in that relationship. In fact, the challenge of writing MU fics is taking that twisted thing on screen and turning it into something that TnT shippers can root for without taking away the edge that the MU has.