Vulcan Modesty

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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby crystalswolf » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:29 am

:wave: Honeybee. Sorry I haven't been around for lengthy discussions but I have been browsing here and there before bed so I'm not completely out of the loop.

I think it's unfortunate that we haven't seen a male trapped in a betrothal and having to face a loveless marriage because he loves someone else. Actually I have a story about that brewing. I think we haven't seen this scenario has more to do with the fact that the writers believed the audience would view a male as a cruel, heartless man refusing a devoted wife-to-be. Whereas a woman would still be considered a cold-hearted b**ch but somehow more forgivable because she's "just an emotional woman" (personally, I would have sympathy for male or female)

As for the TnT bond during the marriage, I just always thought that T'Pol and Koss had their bond since childhood that slowly weakened as time passed and she formed another bond with Trip that grew as time passed, perhaps even overpowering her bond with Koss (except, of course, in The Understanding where it was absorbed into the TnT bond).

Truth be told, I never really thought officiators of Vulcan weddings checked for other bonds. I just thought they would check for a bond between the couple, assume it was established during childhood and be done with it. Anything else would seem like an invasion.

And the subject of Vulcans and monogamy... well, you guys know where I stand on that topic ;)

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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby EntAllat » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:00 am

crystalswolf wrote:I think it's unfortunate that we haven't seen a male trapped in a betrothal and having to face a loveless marriage because he loves someone else.


I wondered that about Sarek. At least, I did until *cough*the monstrosity that was*cough* Star Trek V, when it was explained that Sarek had been previously married, then became a widower long before meeting Amanda.

If you ignore that bit now that the reboot movie has happened, surely Sarek would still have been bonded to someone when he was seven years old? How then would he have dealt with getting out of that in order to marry Amanda, which he admitted he did out of love?

crystalswolf wrote:As for the TnT bond during the marriage, I just always thought that T'Pol and Koss had their bond since childhood that slowly weakened as time passed and she formed another bond with Trip that grew as time passed, perhaps even overpowering her bond with Koss (except, of course, in The Understanding where it was absorbed into the TnT bond).


Something I'm using in my fiction now is to assume that T'Pol and Koss never had a childhood psychic bond because of cultural change over time on Vulcan:

I.e. the creation of a low-level bond between the bethrothed children, by a priest, was common practice in pre-Awakening times. It slowly went out of favor and eventually became seen as archaic, under the same cultural circumstances and reasons that mind melds apparently became thought of as 'deviant'.

In that case, the childhood betrothal ceremony in T'Pol's day might no longer include the actual creation of a psychic bond and, in fact, might be seen as something that only the Syrannites would still practice. Once T'Pau comes to power, there's another cultural shift and a 'Re-Awakening' of sorts that eventually results in Syrannite practices like mind melds, the knowledge of the passing of katras and other ancient practices becoming mainstream. By Sarek's generation actually bonding the children psychically is an accepted and common practice once again, in the same way that many of our own views and acceptance of social practices have waxed and waned over centuries.

In this case, T'Pol simply would have lived in an era of Vulcan social norms that still required betrothals but not a psychic bonding. In fact, her era seemed unfamiliar with its creation. At least, that's how I interpreted T'Pol's cautious statement to Trip: "There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond." She seemed to imply that it was more of anecdotal type of information she had come across and not something that had been, say, well established (or at least officially accepted as true despite massive evidence) in the medical literature of her time. I don't think that's too far a stretch to say, especially if their physicians were reluctant to even bother doing research into Pan'aar Syndrome.

If that was the case, then T'Les probably would never have spoken to her daughter about psychic bonds - even if she experienced one with her husband. It might have been one of those things you just didn't talk about. T'Pol wouldn't have known it could be possible and it would have taken her some time and study of the Kir'Shara to realize what was happening to her and Trip.

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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby aadarshinah » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:03 am

EntAllat wrote:In this case, T'Pol simply would have lived in an era of Vulcan social norms that still required betrothals but not a psychic bonding.


And the word "bond" would have just carried over despite, giving all us measely humans all sorts of problems....

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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby Asso » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:17 pm

Why adultery? Frankly I think the true adultery is when you have sex with someone whom you don't love, both by your own volition (that happens, even on Vulcan, it seems, and is very bad, and sad) and by a forced constriction (T'Pring's case). T'Pring would have commited adultery if she were accepted to have sex with the man she didn't love. (like women have often forced to do, here - on Earth - and on Vulcan too, by all appearances).
The remainder... hypocrisies, in my mind.
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby crystalswolf » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:33 pm

Great idea, EntAllat. I'd wondered about the possibility that there were no bonds in T'Pol's time because of that comment to Trip. I just couldn't piece together how it would be in Spock's time but not in T'Pol's. But it's true, they could have just reinstated the practice after the discovery of the Kir'Shara and this definitely gives more room to work with in fanfic!

Edited: sorry about the name mix-up.

Added: It's not TnT but I guess it's okay if I mention that I have a fix for the Sybok debacle. :upchuck: Probably will not be able to transfer it from thought to computer until Fall though.

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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby Silverbullet » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:37 pm

Even if T'Pol did not know for certain about a Bond being created between Vulcans she certainly would have no idea it could happen between a Vulcan and aHuman.

Nevertheless, she DID know that she and Trip had mated before home. Which leads me to ask just what does mating mean to a Vulcan female? Certainly not casual Sex or a one night stand. I always thought it meant a commitment perhaps a life long commitment. If so, why didn't she tell mother? Why hadn't Mother told T'Pol about the birds and the bees? Mating, bonds after marriage or out of marriage. T'Pol seemed woefully ignorant of these things.

Have to check but think the Encyclopedia says that the engagement bond could be broke if the engagement was broken. If the patents of Koss got angry at T'Pol's refusual to come back to Vulcan to marry Koss and broke the engagement the bond would have been broken too. When she mated with Trip a bond could be formed with no problem because no other bond existed.

Aside: Damned writers horsed this whole thing up by the Episode Home. I have often wondered if they intended to use it to kill off the TnT thread but changed their minds later and had Koss divorce T'Pol. They again started the "will they, wont they" stuff. That damned morning after scene in Harbinger was bad enough but Home was the icing on the cake.
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby aadarshinah » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:09 pm

Silverbullet wrote:If so, why didn't she tell mother?


I never got the impression T'Pol was all that close to T'Les. And if Vulcans are weary of discussing intimate information with people they're not close to, it might never occured to her as something she would share with her mother, at least not until they were more certain in their relationship. Or it could always be the ol' "my mom will hate my boyfriend, so I just won't tell her about him" thing.

As for "Harbringer" in particular, never underestimate the power of self-doubt. T'Pol is still a relatively young Vulcan, doing something more severely against her cutural norms (presumably) by having a relationship with a human who is not her bethrothed, and in a deeply twisted emotional place with the trellium. Having very little experience with these things and having seen the relatively short-term nature of human relationships, she was decided to dump first rather than be dumped, not realizing that that wasn't Trip's intent. Teenagers do similar all the time. And, for all her age, as far as relationships go, T'Pol's in the same place most teenagers are in season three...

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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby pdsldl » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:14 pm

EntAllat wrote:
crystalswolf wrote:I think it's unfortunate that we haven't seen a male trapped in a betrothal and having to face a loveless marriage because he loves someone else.


I wondered that about Sarek. At least, I did until *cough*the monstrosity that was*cough* Star Trek V, when it was explained that Sarek had been previously married, then became a widower long before meeting Amanda.

If you ignore that bit now that the reboot movie has happened, surely Sarek would still have been bonded to someone when he was seven years old? How then would he have dealt with getting out of that in order to marry Amanda, which he admitted he did out of love?

crystalswolf wrote:As for the TnT bond during the marriage, I just always thought that T'Pol and Koss had their bond since childhood that slowly weakened as time passed and she formed another bond with Trip that grew as time passed, perhaps even overpowering her bond with Koss (except, of course, in The Understanding where it was absorbed into the TnT bond).


Something I'm using in my fiction now is to assume that T'Pol and Koss never had a childhood psychic bond because of cultural change over time on Vulcan:

I.e. the creation of a low-level bond between the bethrothed children, by a priest, was common practice in pre-Awakening times. It slowly went out of favor and eventually became seen as archaic, under the same cultural circumstances and reasons that mind melds apparently became thought of as 'deviant'.

In that case, the childhood betrothal ceremony in T'Pol's day might no longer include the actual creation of a psychic bond and, in fact, might be seen as something that only the Syrannites would still practice. Once T'Pau comes to power, there's another cultural shift and a 'Re-Awakening' of sorts that eventually results in Syrannite practices like mind melds, the knowledge of the passing of katras and other ancient practices becoming mainstream. By Sarek's generation actually bonding the children psychically is an accepted and common practice once again, in the same way that many of our own views and acceptance of social practices have waxed and waned over centuries.

In this case, T'Pol simply would have lived in an era of Vulcan social norms that still required betrothals but not a psychic bonding. In fact, her era seemed unfamiliar with its creation. At least, that's how I interpreted T'Pol's cautious statement to Trip: "There's a long-held belief that when a Vulcan mates, there's a shared psychic bond." She seemed to imply that it was more of anecdotal type of information she had come across and not something that had been, say, well established (or at least officially accepted as true despite massive evidence) in the medical literature of her time. I don't think that's too far a stretch to say, especially if their physicians were reluctant to even bother doing research into Pan'aar Syndrome.

If that was the case, then T'Les probably would never have spoken to her daughter about psychic bonds - even if she experienced one with her husband. It might have been one of those things you just didn't talk about. T'Pol wouldn't have known it could be possible and it would have taken her some time and study of the Kir'Shara to realize what was happening to her and Trip.



This would explain why T'Pol seemed so un-knowledgeable about mating and bonds. it could also be why T'Les went to such lengths to be a Syrannite and insisted she did it for T'Pol. Her involvement in the group may have given her knowledge so when she said she was doing it for T'Pol she was trying to ensure her child had the opportunity to experience what it was to be Vulcan and not the what the Romulans and V'Las had been trying make into the truth. A planet full of Vulcans all fully aware of their psychic abilities would be harder to defeat if they can singularly or collectively use those abilities to kill.

I don't think T'Pol really had any inkling that there was a bond until Trip went to Columbia. The expense and his emotional upheaval about Lizzie etc... may have been enough to cloud things for her, especially since she gave the impression that they were more like a fairy tale or a story that parents told their children.
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby justTripn » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:04 pm

WarpGirl wrote:Being willing to have sex with a man who is not your husband (which is what T'Pring was willing to do) is whorish behavior, and it goes for men too! Did T'Pol offer to have a sexual relationship when married to Koss with anyone? Do most people here think she would? If so bring solid evidence. I never saw any indication she was willing to do that outside of fanfic. So yeah T'Pring's a whore.


The day I discovered House of Tucker and fandom I had already written a fanfic. In defending an aspect of that story in the comments, I said, "Yes, but T'Pol had a casual view of sex" recieving many howls of indignation. Here is the line I was thinking of "Thank you for helping me explore human sexuality" and later:

TUCKER: You're afraid to admit that under the right circumstances you could have feelings for me. Maybe you have them already.
T'POL: I should have known this was a mistake.
TUCKER: What?
T'POL: Exploring human sexuality with you. You're obviously unable to have a physical relationship without developing an emotional attachment.

Put this together with her comments that she thought the crew should have shore leave so they could have sex and I would say that T'Pol had a casual view of sex.
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby pdsldl » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:29 pm

JT was it her own view or her interpretation of human mores/needs. She told Trip he needed to keep his own human views out of it when looking at other cultures so she'd most likely do the same. I always took her comment about as exploring as a way to cover the fact that she wanted him and was jealous and being a scientist the exploration angle seemed most plausible to get her out of a situation she was not prepared for.
Not that I think she was a prude. From what we saw she was much more liberal and independent in her thinking than many of her fellow Vulcans. There's a big difference in being modest and being private as there is in sharing personal details (considering them intimate because of who you share them with and what they say about who you are and are more part of our emotional selves) and the physical act of being nude in the presence of others. Nudity in her professional capacity or for medical reasons would most likely be acceptable much the way touching was acceptable when the situation called for it (to assist a crewmen or complete a task etc...).
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:32 pm

Re crew. T'Pol was thinking logically with what little she knew about Humans. She seemed to believe that Humans were very casual about sex and that they needed Sexual outlets occasionaly. Her knowledge was based on medical Data Bases which could lead her to belive that.

When she thanked Trip for helping her explore Human Sexuality. She was coldly rejecting him by inferrring the night before had no other meaning to her than an exploration. That doesn't mean she really felt that way or that it was really an Exploration. She probably was protecting herself because she may have thought he saw it as a casual Sexual encouter and she just beat him to the punch.

Again when she said that it was a mistake she reitereated her lie from that morning after and added the jab that he was incapable of haivng a sexual encounter without getting emotionaly invoved. Again protecting herself.

Later when talking the older T'pol she lied again by saying her Heart didn't know what it wanted. It did because she had that erotic dream of being in the shower with him regardless of the outcome of the dream. I have always believed that the old T'Pol had lived exactly the same life as the young T'Pol until her ship entered the worm hole when it became a Generational ship. The old T'Pol too would have seduced her Trip and had the same erotic dream of being in the shower with him. The old T'Pol would know the young one was lying to both of them, herself and the old T'Pol by claiming her Heart did n't know it was in love with Trip.

T'Pol's attitude towards Sex is not revealed by what she says to Trip because she lied to him. Her advice to Archer and Trip to go to Risa and get their Ashes Hauled was based on faulty information but not a reflection on her own attitudes toward Sex.
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby Transwarp » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:35 pm

justTripn wrote:Put this together with her comments that she thought the crew should have shore leave so they could have sex and I would say that T'Pol had a casual view of sex.

You make a reasonable argument here. On the other hand, the 'exploring human sexuality' remark may have been a desperate attempt to convince herself that she wasn't falling for one of those pesky humans.

And the shore leave suggestion could have come from a rather insulting view of humans based on the belief that we are unable to control our sexual urges, as the infinitely superior Vulcans do.
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby justTripn » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:56 pm

Yes, I see what you are saying. The theory is that T'Pol was trying to "go native" (be like the Humans) but didn't really understand the Human culture enouph to do that correclty. However, Vulcans are often very pragmatic, and I suspect they might be that way about sex. Alelou had Kov explaining that the females on the ship serviced the men when they went into pon far. She had Trip saying, "That doesn't sound very romantic" and Kov saying "it's not." Granted these are a group of unusual Vulcans, but if I were to guess, I would guess that Vulcans in general would be rather pragmatic about these things, unless a bond had formed with someone, and even then.
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby Silverbullet » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:19 pm

I don't believe that the Episode "Two days and two Nights" was an accurate reflection on T'Pol's attitude toward sex. she had first advised Archer and Trip to go to Risa to get laid. Yet, she gives Archer a book to read while on Risa. Does this mean she did not want him to have Sex so she gives him a book on Surak's teachings. That would keep him busy for two days trying to make sense of it. Trip and Malcom were Comic relief in this Episode which I didn't care for. Lastly the only one that got laid was the one I least expetec to: Hoshi.

T'Pol giving Archer that book didn't fit. she had boldly told them to go to Risa for one purpose and then renegs on that by giving Archer the book. T'Pol's attitude must have changed between the time she gave that advice and when they arrived in Orbit around Risa. Maybe she saw some differnt Data base which suggested that Humans were not Horny all of the time after all. Which may have been more in line with her Sexual attitudes.
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Re: Vulcan Modesty

Postby pdsldl » Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:29 pm

I can believe Vulcans approached sex more pragmatically/clinically to satisfy biological urges and procreate, no hearts and flowers, even if they bonded over time. But T'Pol was more open to seeing things from a human perspective. Whether that was just because she was more daring (and felt her emotions more) than other Vulcans or because she was attracted to Trip or both is hard to say for sure but she seemed to want more than the connection T'Les described to Trip that developed after their marriage.

I also think that once she made her decision about seducing Trip she would have no reason to be modest. They had been performing neuro-pressure in more casual attire than normal. The morning after she was reeling because she discovered there was more to sex than just sex because her knowledge and understanding of humans and sex were limited mostly to what she knew of Trip's behavior and that of the rest of the crew. And a starship lightyears away from home, with crew separated from their loved ones and temporary hookups of convenience etc... , and high stress levels, would not be the best place for an inexperienced Vulcan to really observe or learn about such things.

And SB we all bounce back and forth between what we've known, what is familiar, and whatever it is we're trying to learn or understand. Change takes time for us to be comfortable with our new knowledge and how to apply it. So T'Pol saying get laid on one hand and giving Archer a book may just have been her trying to reconcile the old and the new or what she would do vs. what she thinks the humans will do or need to do.
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