"The Understanding"

[crystalswolf]

I had to post separately to keep track of topics... sorry for the double.

Crystalwolf. Implied and direct information. I bbelieve that most on this board accept that Trip and T-Pol are in love although neither ever said so. I thhink that many also accept that Trip and T-Pol go on to marry and have a family. That is implied at the end of Terra Prime. A lot of stories are based on that implication.

Umm, this is a TnT ship board. Does not necessarily mean their love or even a long term relationship is canon. I'm sure there are some lonely Archer/T'Pol shippers out there roaming the void of the internet with just as much claim. I choose to use established info, I am a TnT shipper and so choose to use that as well.

Direct information the Bond. T-Pol says the bond exists. In demons Trip says he is sick of it and t-Pol says she doesn't enjoy it either. However, the Bond frst appeared when Trip was on the Columbia and T-Pol was on the Enterprise at a distance of one light year apart. One light year is approximately Six Trillion Miles that is with a "T." A Bond that could connect two minds over that distance must be very, very, very, VERY powerful. That kind of power would be difficult to lose or sever so in *the_abomination* when T-Pol suggests that it has faded, I cannot believe that. The direct iformation contradicts that.

I believe that both Implied and direct information are acceptable if plausible and logical.

The bond is canon. Besides that, fair game. They have a powerful bond but as far as we know, Trip could have told T'Pol to kiss off or T'Pol could've told Trip to have a nice human life and be done with him. I, as a TnT shipper choose to see them together some way, some how (the how's vary from story to story).

Now, you keep bringing up *the_abomination* and I don't understand why. I've already stated that this story is based loosely on the book that pretty much scratches out *the_abomination*. Now if you would like to discuss whether the book is canon or not, that's a whole different story that I'm sure others would like to join in on.

[Silverbullet]

Have to agree with DIS. No male would want to share his woman with any other male, period.

Trip would lose all of his pride if he suggested to T-Pol to marry or sleepwith another male. He couldn't look at himself in the mirror. There is NOTHING that could make him go along with her sleeping with another male if he knows about it. He damned sure isn't going to encourage it. If she does it behind his back she is cheating on him abnd if he finds out his pride would be in tatters and the pain would be unbearable. If he never finds out that it another matter.

How often do you read about males who still don't want an Ex-Wife sleeping with another male. Women get the stuffing beat out of them by those kind of guys.

No, that would hit Trip where his Pride is most sensitive. Even if he had a gun uup to his head he would not go along with it.

[honeybee]

Have to agree with DIS. No male would want to share his woman with any other male, period.

I'm going to have to disagree with this, based on the show. What about Phlox? What about Andorians? They have plural marriage.

And plural marriage does exist in human culture, albeit rarely. This mostly includes men married to multiple women - but there are the reverse cases as well. Polyamoury does exist in human culture. Anyone see the famous film Paint Your Wagon? It's about two men married to the same woman, happily? And wife swapping certainly exists in human culture.

And I can be convinced that the Vulcans might develop some kind of mate sharing system (even a secret one) to deal with pon farr without violence. A culture which must mate or die could do that.

Now, whether or not a full plural marriage could happen - would probably have to do with the nature of the marriage bond.

Oh, and there's the film Y Tu Mama Tambien and the Book "The Mysteries of Pittsburg" which both deal with three way relationships with two men and one woman.

[Silverbullet]

Cw, I believe that I said in the commments section of your story that I did NOT consider the books as Canon. I said that I considered Enterprise as Canon because it was sanctioned by the Star Trek Franchise.

[Aquarius]

Cw, I believe that I said in the commments section of your story that I did NOT consider the books as Canon. I said that I considered Enterprise as Canon because it was sanctioned by the Star Trek Franchise.

For the purposes of her story, it doesn't matter whether or not you consider the books canon. She established that things established in the book are in the foundation of her story, so arguing against it based on things that the book negates is kind of a waste of time. If the book establishes something and she uses it, well, then that's just how it is. Again, you don't have to like the book, though I have a feeling you haven't read it. That the books aren't canon (as conventionally defined as "what was shown on the screen) is irrelevant when a fic author says "By the way, my story is based on this book." The argument ends there.

[crystalswolf]

The problem with implied canon is that people have different interpretations.

I agree with both Distracted and SilverBullet. A Vulcan involved in a threesome seems all wrong for the stated reasons and I also agree that there was implied things about TnT but strongly enough that they are canon. Trip did say he loved T'Pol to T'Les. I do believe an on-going on again off again romantic relationship existed as supported by Trips questions as to what T'Les knew about them/him and what T'Pol would tell her when she invited him to Vulcan. . T'Les trapped Trip into admitting they were romantically involved. Also T'Pol, who previously equated taking someone home to meet the parents was tantamount to an marriage proposal, took him home with her. T'Pol had a need to let Trip know there was no honeymoon (no sex) with Koss and why would she need to tell him her study of the Kir'Shara meant no time for them if there hadn't been time spent with him before that? The bond was a fact and while there are many open questions about how it worked nut allowing for more than one mate is does not seem like a reasonable option. Vulcan mating seemed to operate on an instinctual level and there are few species of mammals that would allow another male near his mate no matter what life throws at them. They kill for much less. Trip loved T'Pol but didn't even consider being with T'Pol while she was married and her culture may have allowed for this because she was married in name only. I just don't see him giving up his morals less than picture perfect life or not. In fact to me most of his experiences would make him hold on to what he holds dear more tightly than before not less.

Okay, I'll try to get everything. T'Les says it outright and he agrees, canon. Trip could have asked those questions to find out for himself because T'Pol was dropping hints in episodes here and there. Equivalent to "What am I to you". Since it could go either way, not canon. T'Les tricked Trip into admitting romance, canon. T'Pol said "on some planets" I don't remember her saying Vulcans did that. Please let me know if she did so I can change that on my mental list. Confused by the honeymoon reference. Reasonable why? I think his definition of morality, like any other person, would depend on experiences, environment, timing, people involved, etc. An example, a person my not believe in stealing, but if they have to watch their child starve they may start to consider it as an option.

As far as TnT having a child Lorian existed and baby Elizabeth was cloned which meant her DNA was genetically altered and there would be no reason why Phlox or a geneticist wouldn't have been able to apply the techniques used for one or both births to TnT's DNA to assist them with a child either naturally or like Sim was created by Phlox. They could do that now so would most definitely be able to in 215?. These are not implied in canon but are what was presented as canon.

I never disputed their ability. I only disputed the idea that a Human-Vulcan child could not be conceived unassisted by medicine. That is still up for grabs.

I read your first chapter and while I think you have a right to your opinion I don't see anything in canon that would allow for your scenario. I read stories that have stretched it as far as keeping within character but find it must be something that can be reasonably implied from what we saw on screen. I've liked your other stories and look forward to reading them but I won't be reading the rest of this one.

As for it not being your thing, that's perfectly understandable. I appreciate that you gave it a chance but I do wonder now if the warning should have been posted multiple times. As for canon, there's nothing solid that says my story is possible or isn't possible so I guess that's one of the "we'll have to agree to disagree" situations.

[crystalswolf]

You know, you guys kept me very busy tonight! I think my fingers are cramping.

[Silverbullet]

Honeybee, I think that polygamy and Polyandry are born of necessity. Not enough Men to go around. that is what hapened in the Muslim society. In The wars of consuqest the Arabs lost a lot of males so Mohammed said a man could have four wives if he supported them equally. That way the women had a chance to marry and have a family. Tibetans had olyandry for a while and I believe another Himalyian nation had it too for a bit. Men lost due to war. Not sure why the MOrmons practiced it. I have not studied Mormonism closely enough. Could be Brigham young liked women.

Paint yuor wagon was a movie not based on real life.

Many societies have funnny ideas The tiwi's a tribe on an Island off the Coast of Australia has a law that ALL females must be married. In a way this is a kindness as no woman is without a place to sleep and food to eat. It is kind of a Social Security net. Of course there is a lively trade in daughters for economic and politial gain.

[Pegmumm]

[honeybee]

And what I'm saying, SB - is Vulcans are a "mate or die" species - so it wouldn't knock me over with a feather if they had a social construct for mate sharing of some kind, even though we never saw it. The show over and over showed us that sexual mores differ from species to species.

Paint Your Wagon was a comedy, but it addressed the fact that there were not enough "respectable" women on the frontier, which was true. So scenarios like what as seen in the film did happen. Not that often, but it occurred.

I'm not even saying that I think Trip would be willing to share with Koss (I don't) I just think that in the abstract, mate sharing not something either human or Vulcan cultures would automatically reject if circumstances made it necessary.

[crystalswolf]

[Pegmumm]

[Aquarius]

CW, I can certainly empathize with you tonight. Remember, not so long ago, I had people getting all freaked out and judgmental at me--over a warning label.

For the better part of the day, I have been feeling an overwhelming sense of deja vu. Not in terms of the subject matter of the stories, but in terms of backlash.

One thing I never quite understood, ever. There are quite a few things at this site (just as at any other site on the planet) that aren't my cup of tea. But I never felt compelled to announce that I'm not reading them. I just simply (discreetly) don't read them. If I can't gush on about how much I like a story, then I at least like to be in a position where I can be supportive and constructive. If I can't do that, then I just assume I'm not the target audience for the piece.

[Transwarp]

crystalswolf writes: I've already stated that this story is based loosely on the book that pretty much scratches out *the_abomination*.

Couldn't let that one go: The book doesn't scratch out *the_abomination*, it actually endorses it by building far-fetched scenarios just so Trip doesn't have to be dead. (Another of my many problems with the book.)

As far as T'Pol's pregnancy, I missed in the story where it happened naturally, without medical intervention. I simply assumed there was medical intervention. There would HAVE to be. Trip and T'Pol are two different species, from two different planets. One has copper-based blood, one has iron-based blood. Their organs are in different places. Canon seems pretty clear on this; of the two children Trip and T'Pol had (Elizabeth and Lorian) both required medical intervention. Is the story actually postulating natural conception?

As far as three-way marriage and three-way bonds, as a human male I could never see myself voluntarily entering such a relationship. However, I have no problem with a writer playing the 'what-if' game to set up unique and challenging scenarios. crystalswolf has done that here. She certainly has my attention, and I am willing to suspend my disbelief and go along for the ride. When we get to the final destination at the end of the story, she may well have convinced me of the plausibility of the whole thing. Or not. Who knows? It has certainly happened to me before.

crystalswolf wrote: I'm sure there are some lonely Archer/T'Pol shippers out there roaming the void of the internet

At last report, the last known Archer/T'Pol shipper is living in the basement of his parent's home. During the day, he works at a local grocery store retrieving shopping carts from the parking lot. In the evenings he studies for his GED before dinner, then spends the rest of the night vainly searching the internet for active A/T sites. Alas, they have all been shut down.

[panyasan]

I will leave a debate about our perception of different cultures (lived in several) for another time. Instead my comment to your story: I didn't find the concept very plausible and probably not my cup of tea, (so I shouldn't comment), but I got sympathy and feeling for the people involved, including Koss. It was touching.