Do Vulcans have a Religion?

[justTripn]

Exactly. Coincidentally both Silverbullet and I spent time in Thailand and are at least superficially familiar with Bhuddism. We both agree that Bhuddism is a religion, as evidenced by the numerous temples, monks, and by the devotion of ordinary people to Bhudda's "Middle Way" (which is about moderation). But according to my understanding of it and Wikipedia it is not about a God.

I see he's posted something about a Vulcan afterlife. Excellent question. What's with the katras? Does everyone have a katra or only Vulcans?

[Alelou]

I think that if you believe in a katra, or an eternal soul, and such a thing cannot be objectively proven through science, then you are making a religious leap of faith, whether you believe in a creating or organizing god-force or god-being or not. However, Vulcans have a big one up on us because they can store (!) and mentally transfer and experience another's katra in such a way as would seem to prove its existence, so it doesn't necessariliy war with logic for them to have that belief. Still, T'Pol didn't believe in katras before Season 4 and is shaken up when the evidence suggests they exist. To me that looked like a religious awakening and I think it's fairly reasonable for Trip to equate the Kir'Shara with her Bible, even if it her belief system doesn't extend to a faith in a God in the sense of a Creator with a distinct being and personality.

In Thai Buddhism, isn't there worship or at least reverence of one's ancestors (including sacrifices and gifts) as if they still exist in some after life and can influence your experience in this life?

[justTripn]

In Thai Buddhism, isn't there worship or at least reverence of one's ancestors (including sacrifices and gifts) as if they still exist in some after life and can influence your experience in this life?

Yes.

[Silverbullet]

Alelou, then Katra can also mean the Vulcan Soul? It would seem to be the Essence of a vulcan? that to me is the Soul. If T'Pol has come to accept a Katra (or Soul) she must have accepted a Belief system of some sort. I an afterlife as some believe the soul is immortal. Vulcans may too.

[Alelou]

With Vulcans it's a little hard to know if that really counts as religious faith, because 1) katras are something they can actually experience, thus not requiring faith the way our belief in the eternal soul might. Also 2) Based on what Sarek says in The Search for Spock, once a katra is lost it is considered lost forever. That's not very comforting! In fact, their idea of boxing katras up in little containers or passing them around priest to priest would probably correspond more with our idea of ghosts kept from leaving their earthly haunts by unpleasant unfinished business. I find myself wondering if one's katra wouldn't rather be free to fly off to do whatever katras want to do. (Perhaps riding along with Hopalong Cassidy, if it's Trip's....)

[pdsldl]

The Vulcans don't fit my understanding of religion but neither do they adhere to only being philosophical. They have the rituals surrounding life events but do not speculate or seem interested in the miraculous or unexplained like many religions and do not have a figurehead that they worship. Their belief system is more a combination of these more along the lines of Buddhism. I was raised to believe that religion was all about the unexplained, the unknowable, so there were priests/ministers to help guide one to their own understanding. I just don't see Vulcans asking the type of questions a religion tries to deal with. I've always thought they weren't religious but I can see where others might see it differently.

I'm not even sure what Gene Roddenbury would say because he said "I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will -- and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain." but then he also stated "No, there was no consideration in giving humans, talking about God, or talking about those types of things. We wanted to avoid it to be quite frank. But we did very often explore theology through alien characters. Which frankly is much more interesting anyway. Whether it was the Bajorans and their religion or the Borg and their religion. They had the religion of perfection. That, I think, was more interesting. We want to keep Star Trek secular. The human facet of Star Trek secular." So while he professed to avoiding religion he allowed for exploring it through aliens of which the Vulcans are.

As far as katras go I'd have to say all beings have them but many do not have the discipline/training to be in touch with their inner self. If Trip could bond to T'Pol it would stand to reason that he also has a katra that can be joined with his mates. And being a rational. logical scientist may have made it difficult form T'Pol to believe in katras or perhaps the High Command had done such a bang up job of hiding Vulcan's true natures from the masses that they really believed this and bonds etc... were all made up stories. I'd say Archer's experience with Surak's katra moves it from the realm of the unknown and into a place where their scientists would study it. It seemed to be a part of their physiology more than mystical.

[Silverbullet]

If Vulcans are logical or too logical to have a Belief system. One of the most Loggical and scientific of minds in our age, Einstein said "God does not play Dice....." He believed in Science and Logic but also in a diety.

I do not thin it is beyond the realm of possibity that Vulcans could follow Surack which is a teaching of a way of life and how to control Emotions with a Belief System.

the two are not incompatible.

Jesus also taught: Render what is Ceasers unto to Ceaser and what is God's unto God. He seperated Day to day from a belief system.

[Aquarius]

My loose change on the subject:

To Vulcans, believing in a deity--especially one that "controls" or "oversees" everything in life would be regarded as a superstition, and therefore illogical and a waste of time.

However, their devotion to logic and exploring philosophical matters and the teachings of Surak would qualify as a "religion." It's a a code of behavior, and the Vulcan experience is only mystical because we humans have no practical frame of reference, not because the things that Vulcans can do (mind melds, transfer katras, etc.) depend on some unknown, unseen deity that we have to take it "on faith" that it's there.

Regarding the katra, humans have to take it on faith that we have a "soul," because there's just no way to find out if we have one for sure. Vulcans, on the other hand, *know* that they have them (or at least they know it at various times throughout their history), because they can be transferred from body to body. They can prove well enough to themselves that katras exist without shrouding it in superstition and theology.

[Aquarius]

If Vulcans are logical or too logical to have a Belief system. One of the most Loggical and scientific of minds in our age, Einstein said "God does not play Dice....." He believed in Science and Logic but also in a diety.

I do not thin it is beyond the realm of possibity that Vulcans could follow Surack which is a teaching of a way of life and how to control Emotions with a Belief System.

the two are not incompatible.

Jesus also taught: Render what is Ceasers unto to Ceaser and what is God's unto God. He seperated Day to day from a belief system.

You're operating under the fallacy that Einstein is like a Vulcan. He was not. He was governed by his emotions, fears, and insecurities, just like any other human being--things that drive people to worship deities. Einstein being a brilliant scientist does not in any way, shape, or form make him representative of what a Vulcan would think. Your logic (pardon the pun) simply does not hold up here.

Vulcans endeavor to distance themselves from the things that drive Western humans to church: insecurity, fear, a need to believe they'll be taken care of, a need to blame someone/something when things go awry (the devil), etc. Sorry, but Western religion is pretty incompatible with Vulcan beliefs...though the IDIC philosophy will compel them to allow you to practice it as you see fit.

[Asso]

If we have to talk seriously about this matter, I think we should stop to try to find something able to make Vulcans different from us. I said this many times: they are a projection of ourselves, every time we attempt to explain them saying: well, you know, they are Vulcans, we run the risk of saying things difficult to being fully sharable, even to assimilate.
If, one day, we meet really with some Aliens, they will be really Aliens, and we won't even be able to try to comprehend them.
This is obviously my humble opinion.

[justTripn]

Silverbullet you are using this term "belief system" in a way I don't recognize. Science is a belief system, I would think, as is Buddhism and Christianity. Belief system is an even broader category than religion. What do you mean by belief system? Because you keep saying that if Vulcans have a belief system they probably arrive at theories concerning a Creator. If science is your exclusive belief system, you do not necessarily arrive at a theory of a Creator.

[Asso]

I don't know, JT. I am not what people can call a believer, and nevertheless I am not alien to think that a Creator can exist. And I am a fervent BELIEVER in science.

[Aquarius]

If we have to talk seriously about this matter, I think we should stop to try to find something able to make Vulcans different from us. I said this many times: they are a projection of ourselves, every time we attempt to explain them saying: well, you know, they are Vulcans, we run the risk of saying things difficult to being fully sharable, even to assimilate.
If, one day, we meet really with some Aliens, they will be really Aliens, and we won't even be able to try to comprehend them.
This is obviously my humble opinion.

I respectfully disagree. Vulcans aren't merely humans with pointed ears. You are only partially correct when you say that they were created to be a projection of ourselves. Their *pre-Surak history* was meant to mirror where we were at the time Roddenberry created Star Trek, and to suggest how bad and savage and bloody things can get if we were to continue on our path. The "modern" Vulcans, as shown to us through Spock, worked hard and rose above that by getting rid of the illogical and irrational and saved themselves and learned tolerance. They are an example of what we *could become*, not what we are, and that is a critical distinction that should not be overlooked when ascribing motives to Vulcans.

[Asso]

But they are still us, Aquarius. As an old devourer of Aliens of science fiction, I must honestly say that they were, and are and always will be what we were, and are, and always will be.
It's us, who ideate them.

[Aquarius]

Sorry but I still disagree. If they were "us," they'd outwardly display emotions and still be hell-bent on destroying themselves, with a fragmented world government and people doing whatever the hell they wanted whenever they wanted, simply because they could.

Vulcans don't do that.

Therefore, they are not "us." They represent a facet of us, they represent our potential, but they do not represent "us" as we are.