Bumpy-headed Romulans

[honeybee]

The species inter-breeding a good theory. Of course, that necessitates the Romulans "bumping" into a species of humanoids with whom they could successfully procreate. Since the Romulans were never portrayed as that much more advanced than Vulcans, it opens the question of whether the Romulan/unknown aliens produced offspring naturally or if there was help way back then and somehow the knowledge was lost.

snerk. "bump"

[Aquarius]

The Romulans themselves may not have possessed the technology to help with successful interbreeding at the time, but maybe the race they bred with did?

[honeybee]

Certainly, there's precedence for technology being lost.

They could have run into another space-faring bumpy headed species.

As for the Remans - it's been a long time since I suffered through Nemesis - but I kind of thought that the Remans were indigenous. But I could have pulled that notion out of thin air.

edited to correct space-faring - which isn't a word but should be.

[panyasan]

The idea that the technology/science of interbreeding was available when Romulans interbred with other species is very appealing. If developed, then chance of a Vulcan/Human hybrid would be much higher. (The technology is there in TnT's time - Lorian wouldn't be possible without it).

I like the idea of explaining the bumpy-head of Romulans with their interbreeding with other species. In the history of Europe, you see a lot of moving of tribes leading to mixing with other tribes, for example a split off group of the Huns, met the Saxons (who later moved to England) and Frysians tribes, with lead to one group of people, who mixed later on with refugees from Spain, Portugal and France.

[Asso]

That could explain why Romulans seem a little more vivid than Vulcans, doesn't it?

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

From a TV show production and writing standpoint, what was the point of making Romulans look different from Vulcans? (Given that they are the same species?) Was there ever a reason stated?

If so, I'd really like to know what it was. (And not a Star Trek universe reason, such as was discussed in the other thread, but a TV show producer/writer reason as to why they felt they needed to look different.)

I'm quite certain that I once read somewhere that the reason was that the producers wanted an easily distinguising mark that would set Romulans apart from Vulcans - so audiences could with just a visual cue identify Romulans. In other words, they thought the viewers too stupid and mix them up.

*****

As for an in-universe explanation, I subscribe to the theory that they interbred with other vulcanoids during their exodus from Vulcan to Romulus. We know there are such people, like the Mintakans (from TNG's Who Watches The Watchers).

There is also the extinct the Debrune, said to be an ancient Romulan offshoot. However, I question the "ancient" thing, since only 2,000 years separates Vulcans from Romulans, and the Debrune civilization is said to be around 2,000 years old.

Other planets mentioned as sites for ancient Romulan artefacts are Barradas III Dessica II, Calder II, Yadalla Prime, and Draken IV (see TNG's The Gambit). My theory is that these planets were stops on the route from Vulcan to Romulus. Maybe the Debrune was one of the first stops and the proto-Romulans interbred with them? Perhaps the Debrune were vulcanoid and had these forehead ridges?

[Asso]

2000 years are a breath, a pinpoint without meaning for the development of a species.

[crystalswolf]

Although I still sit firmly in the camp that its a recessive gene or set of genes (but that's a different topic), as for production I would think it's a typical (and old) trick for TV and Movies. Visually make the villains less attractive so that the audience will side with the hero(es) more. This seems like it would be even more important when you intend to introduce a villain for only an episode. There are exceptions though, when it works to have an attractive villain.

[aadarshinah]

2000 years is nothing in genological time. Especially when the extended lifespan of Vulcans/Romulans are taken into account. If the average age of primigravida among Vulcans/Romulans is taken to be anywhere from 30 - 70 years (extrapulating from Spock's age at the time of pon farr in "The Amok Time" and T'Pol's age in "Breaking the Ice" and "Home," for which I assume would be a later-than-usual-but-not-unheard-of marriage), then the generational turnover of both species in that time would be somewhere between 28 and 67. Meaning that there would only have been about thirty to about seventy generations since the Romulans divided off from the Vulcans. Which really isn't very long, though, as has been aforestated, mutations spread more quickly in smaller populations by virtue of a smaller gene pool and higher chance of positive gentic inforcement. Best example? Moths. A small segment of the moth population had black colouring as opposed to tan, but, when it became advantageou to have black colouring, the trait spread quickly... bascially translating to the idea that, for some reason - whether it was contrued as sexy, happened to belong to influential members of the early Romulans, or were present in a majority before their dispora as they may have been some sort of Vulcan outcasts for it - the bumpy heads only had to have some sort of advantage over the non-bumpy heads, and therefore the trait could have spread quickly through the population, as with the moths.

[crystalswolf]

True under basic, natural conditions. But I believe the rules change when the population is completely isolated. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's one of the reasons why inbreeding is unacceptable (besides morally). Recessive traits (good or bad) manifest quickly. Add to that the more than likely harsh conditions of traveling in space for so long and starting their own civilization on two unknown planets. Not to mention we do not know if they lived long enough to wait to have children at the time of their first pon farr. With this, I would think the potential for recessive genes (so long as they are not life threatening) to take over would be faster than under normal situations.

Now, this could have been a group more likely to have the recessive gene. And during the time of Surak, I would think with all of the fighting, Vulcans from different regions would not interbreed as easily as they would after the Time of Awakening. Several of these carriers would then pass it on to the overall population of remaining Vulcans and it would only show up occasionally as it did before.

[aadarshinah]

Now, this could have been a group more likely to have the recessive gene. And during the time of Surak, I would think with all of the fighting, Vulcans from different regions would not interbreed as easily as they would after the Time of Awakening. Several of these carriers would then pass it on to the overall population of remaining Vulcans and it would only show up occasionally as it did before.

True. Not something I thought of before. Add to that the idea that the Vulcan wars could have been religously/ethnically/racially modivated, and it sounds like a real possibility.

...I believe the rules change when the population is completely isolated. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it's one of the reasons why inbreeding is unacceptable (besides morally). Recessive traits (good or bad) manifest quickly. Add to that the more than likely harsh conditions of traveling in space for so long and starting their own civilization on two unknown planets.

It is possible that the harsh conditions of space travel and a strange new planet (Romulus) may have accelerated the mutation rate of certain genes in the proto-Romulan population, meaning that new genes, not just reccessives, can spread through an isolated population quickly, but it's not nessicarily the case.

You're right about the general way population genetics work, and I think we're basically arguing the same basic thing, but I'm just saying that if you think back to our own human ancestors at the year 0 CE, they're still modern humans. Homo sapiens sapiens. Isoltated populations, which until recently rarely interacted/interbred with outsiders, which date back to this time and before are still modern humans as well, despite their isolation, they can interbreed with other populations. Considering that, theoretically, the average generational turnover of a human population is going to be twice as fast as that of Vulcans (a human girl can have a child at 15, even if it's highly inadvisable, and, indeed, that's what happened through most of our history, so if we go with the exact half of when Vulcans can, if pon farr is any indication, have children at absolute earliest - age 30 to 70 - and say the average age for humans is 15 to 30, than the generational turnover of humans would be 67 to 134 generations in 2000 years, as opposed to the Vulcan 29 to 67) then, the fact that human populations can interbreed (and, therefore, be considered the same species, as the ability to produce viable, fertile offspring is a distinquishing charectoristic of a species) after up to 134 generations should indicate that, though they have minor differences, including the bumpy heads, Romulans and Vulcans are in all likelihood little more than subcultures of the same race after only a quarter/half that with minor genetic differences that suggest place of origin but do not imply major genetic differences. (Ie, blonde hair may be more common among Europeans and it's a good guess to say that a natural blonde is more likely to draw his/her ancestory from Europe, but that does not mean that a blonde and someone with black hair are not the same species, though the genetic mutation that allowed for lighter hair in Europeans occured hundreds of thousands of years back; which, while obvious, is the best way I can think of putting it).

I guess what I'm getting at is, humans today are slightly different, but basically the same as, humans 67/134 generations (2000 years) ago. Vulcans and Romulans are slightly different, but basically the same as, Vulcans 29/67 generations (2000 years) ago.The differences in the two groups genes (and therefore their appearnances) can be explained without resorting to a hightened mutation rate, or interbreeding with other species. It may still have happened, but, by and large, I find it unlikely. Romulans always struck me as to xenophobic/proud of their genetic heritage to claim a not-pureblooded Romulan as a memeber of their race....

[Transwarp]

I'm quite certain that I once read somewhere that the reason was that the producers wanted an easily distinguising mark that would set Romulans apart from Vulcans - so audiences could with just a visual cue identify Romulans. In other words, they thought the viewers too stupid and mix them up.

This sounds plausible, unfortunately. THEY think WE'RE stupid. So, on a series where the episode introducing Romulans to the viewers makes a point of their similarity to Vulcans (so we could have the subplot of all that suspicion directed at Spock), on a series where a couple of skin blotches or a bump above the nose makes an actor a member of an entirely different alien species, THEY put forehead ridges on Romulans.

So we can tell them apart.

Because we would never notice that they're wearing different uniforms.

<sigh>

This theory has the ring of truth.

[EntAllat]

I went poking around the intarwebz to see if I could find even a rumor of why the folks in charge of Star Trek at the time decided to give the Romulans a makeover.

I didn't have much luck. All I could find was one off-hand (and unsubstantiated) remark in one forum that "the producers at the time felt that if the Vulcans and the Romulans looked alike, it would confuse the fans" and a remark on another website that it was a simple decision to 'enhance the makeup": http://www.stdimension.org/int/Investigate/biology.htm#romulans

Otherwise, not even a hint as to why they decided to make that change.

Here's a couple of other interesting discussions, and attempts at in-universe explanation, that I stumbled across while trying to look this up:

Star Trek Expanded Universe: http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/star-trek-expanded-universe/

ST Podcast transcript about the topic: http://www.trekcast.com/?p=284
[NOTE: I love the photo bit about "TOS arm position not possible in the TNG uniform". LOL. (Maybe this is why the Romulan Commander from TOS has so many fans on Deviant Art?) I DON'T agree with the podcaster's assessment of T'Pol (of course!) since I think she brought a lot of sexy back to the Vulcans. Even so, I do have to admit that I think the the costume and wig change for Blalock in season 3 looked a lot better.]

[Aquarius]

I'm quite certain that I once read somewhere that the reason was that the producers wanted an easily distinguising mark that would set Romulans apart from Vulcans - so audiences could with just a visual cue identify Romulans. In other words, they thought the viewers too stupid and mix them up.

Yeah. Because the shoulder pads from hell and the worse haircuts than their Vulcan brothers wouldn't be a dead-giveaway that we're dealing with an inherently evil society...

[honeybee]

Not to keep pushing the same point, but those of you who are familiar with TOS's The Enterprise Incident - will remember the Romulan Commander's badass 1960s high fashion.

That was 1000x more awesome than the TNG era Romulans.