T'Pol being chosen for duty on Enterprise

[Silverbullet]

T'Pol was assigned to enterprise as an Observer and Laison. she was an Officer in the VHC. Her rank was Sub-Commander. In the series she was FO but I don't recall Archer talking about it to Trip or even T'Pol she sort of became FO.

This has been hashed so manytimes on many boards. The legality of her being FO.

In Reality since she was a serving Officer of an Alien military she could not be assigned to Enterprise as FO. In addition her rank would mean squat. Enterprise was a HUman ship Officered and Crewed by Humans. With the exception of Phlox who was CMO and would never be in a command position. She would have been accorded all courtesies given a visiting Officer of a foreign military except the crew would not obey her orders as she was not Human or a Starfleet Officer. That is how it really works. However, TPTB seemed to ignore things like that so T'Pol was allowed to assume command when Archer was off the ship and in trouble in Broken bow. In actuality too. In order for Archer to remove Trip as FO and replace him with T'Pol Archer would have had to declare Trip incompetent as FO and by extension as Chief Engineer. Trip could request a full competency hearing by a board in San francisco. If he was found to be competent Archer would have been in a sling. Probably would lose his command and had to appear in front of a competency board himself.

But we have T'Pol as FO because TPTB wanted it.

[Alelou]

Actually, although I tend to accept that Trip was going to be first officer because of how he acts when he's arguing with T'Pol about who should be in command, plus the way he's hanging out with Archer when T'Pol reports for duty, but does it actually say that anywhere?

Chief Engineer is presumably a pretty time-consuming duty on its own. It would have made more sense if they'd had a first officer who couldn't get to the ship in time or got killed on the way in or whatever -- but then, I think that happened in ST:TMP, so that would have been clunky.

[Aquarius]

Actually, although I tend to accept that Trip was going to be first officer because of how he acts when he's arguing with T'Pol about who should be in command, plus the way he's hanging out with Archer when T'Pol reports for duty, but does it actually say that anywhere?

Chief Engineer is presumably a pretty time-consuming duty on its own. It would have made more sense if they'd had a first officer who couldn't get to the ship in time or got killed on the way in or whatever -- but then, I think that happened in ST:TMP, so that would have been clunky.

Both Spock and T'Pol did double duty as XO and Science Officer. Yes I know in "reality" that wouldn't happen--but in context of the franchise, it annoyed me that, say, Riker had nothing to do on the bridge but sit there, after seeing Spock have an actual job on the bridge. Point being: precedent has been established, so Trip being XO as well as chief engineer is consistent.

Second...where is this notion that T'Pol is considered less mature coming from? Her mother said that T'Pol's emotions were always close to the surface, but I think that was destined to be an issue no matter how old she is or where she is developmentally in her lifespan. I don't think it's a sign of immaturity, more of an "Individual Mileage Varies" thing.

[Silverbullet]

Trip actually had a fine staff in Engineering. They could hav ehandled the day to day routine. Making out Schedules: Shift's, Maintenance, Testing. There would be at least four shifts. three on duty and one on break. That is one thing about "Harbinger" that irked me. Engineering seemed to be dark and no one was on duty. Couldn't be. Engineering would be the one section that had to manned 24/7. If T'Pol could be Science Officer and FO Trip could be Chief Engineer and FO.

I could also never go along with the Enterprise leaving Orbit without an Established and published Chain of cCommand. A Chain of command is as important as an Engine to a command in any branch of the military (and Starfleet was military and Enterprise was a Military Ship.) Even so, Chain of Command is in government, business and organizations because it works. Probably the one thing of the Military that has been around since Armies were first organized.

T'Pol's Rank was only good in the VHC. It has no status on a human Ship other than for courtesy reasons. The crew would not obey her. They would know that Trip was second ranking HUMAN officer on board which would make him defacto FO if no official chain of command was published.

That is the way it is in the Military and the way it has always been. It would be so in the VHC, the Imperial Guard of the Andorians or the Tellerites or Klingons.

But I am butting my head against the wall because TPTB simply didn't know or ignored what they did know.

[honeybee]

Second...where is this notion that T'Pol is considered less mature coming from? Her mother said that T'Pol's emotions were always close to the surface, but I think that was destined to be an issue no matter how old she is or where she is developmentally in her lifespan. I don't think it's a sign of immaturity, more of an "Individual Mileage Varies" thing.

Okay - so assuming we are building off the cut line (which, yeah, was cut from the script for a reason, I know). I don't necessarily think that being over emotional would be a function of maturity either. T'Pol simply is less in control naturally, and unfortunately, comes from a culture that does not tolerate this. If she was put on the ship, even for a couple of days, just to "see how someone like her would react" - it would be a cold thing to do.

But, if they had kept that line, it would have been something interesting to build on. I kind of like the idea that it would have been a challenge for T'Pol, in any case, to be on a human ship long term. In say, Tuvok's era, he would have had history to build upon that would have helped him deal with being bombarded with human emotions. But I can buy that T'Pol would have had a difficult time being the first Vulcan on a human ship long term, and that there would be no other explanation needed for her later lapses. I use the term lapses loosely - since Spock was seen showing emotion also - so the fact that she did under certain circumstances does not make her a "bad" Vulcan as some have accused her.

But while I'm not sure her being on the emotional bell curve would be caused by immaturity - I can see some ENT era Vulcans seeing it as such.

[Kotik]

T'Pol was assigned to enterprise as an Observer and Laison. she was an Officer in the VHC. Her rank was Sub-Commander. In the series she was FO but I don't recall Archer talking about it to Trip or even T'Pol she sort of became FO.

This has been hashed so manytimes on many boards. The legality of her being FO.

In Reality since she was a serving Officer of an Alien military she could not be assigned to Enterprise as FO. In addition her rank would mean squat. Enterprise was a HUman ship Officered and Crewed by Humans. With the exception of Phlox who was CMO and would never be in a command position. She would have been accorded all courtesies given a visiting Officer of a foreign military except the crew would not obey her orders as she was not Human or a Starfleet Officer. That is how it really works. However, TPTB seemed to ignore things like that so T'Pol was allowed to assume command when Archer was off the ship and in trouble in Broken bow. In actuality too. In order for Archer to remove Trip as FO and replace him with T'Pol Archer would have had to declare Trip incompetent as FO and by extension as Chief Engineer. Trip could request a full competency hearing by a board in San francisco. If he was found to be competent Archer would have been in a sling. Probably would lose his command and had to appear in front of a competency board himself.

But we have T'Pol as FO because TPTB wanted it.

This has given me a good idea for the next story (more specifically the next chapter of it). Thanx SB

[Transwarp]

Maybe T'Pol was tagged because she was the junior of all the available Vulcan officers who were qualified for the job, and everyone else turned it down: "Two weeks on a ship surrounded by HUMANS? Are you NUTS?" (Or the Vulcan equivalent.)

It doesn't strike me as a plum assignment for a Vulcan.

[Kotik]

Maybe T'Pol was tagged because she was the junior of all the available Vulcan officers who were qualified for the job, and everyone else turned it down: "Two weeks on a ship surrounded by HUMANS? Are you NUTS?" (Or the Vulcan equivalent.)

It doesn't strike me as a plum assignment for a Vulcan.

She was an aide of Ambassador Soval at the time. Since he was the highest representant of the VHC on Earth, he would most likely have been the one who made the final decision. As revealed in "Cease Fire", he held her in high regard and felt she was soon ready to take on more diplomatic resposibility. He might have assigned her as a challenging task to evaluate her progress and suitability for a diplomatic posting, which would require her to work with humans on a regular basis.

[Silverbullet]

What is forgottten. Spock showed emotion because he was Half Human. That got glossed over a lot in the series. In e2 Lorain says he was known to make a joke. The old T'Pol said that he displayed human Emotions on occasion. Spock being half human would also show emotion maybey tell a joke or even learn to smile after being around humans so long. True spock was raised in a Vulcan enviromnent but he chose to attend the Starfleet Acadamy and to be around humans when he grew older.

In Carbon Creek T'Pol tells Archer she is writing an evaluation report on him to send to the VHC. It would seem that when she asked to remain on Enterprise the VHC assigned her to evaluate humans and the crew. I was surprised that she did not say she ws also evaluating Trip.

[crystalswolf]

They did mention that a Vulcan had served with Humans for a time (I think a few weeks but can't remember specifically). So they know that it's difficult, and perhaps T'Pol's assignment was both. They obviously thought she was best suited to handle the previously recorded time so I think it was primarily to watch over the humans. But when she seemed okay with that and more, they figured they had a winner to watch over the humans until she reached her limit and started spitting out requests for reassignment like a copy machine. I'm sure, with this scenario, they would also be a little curious to see how long she could go until then.

[WarpGirl]

Considering how her character was handled in the series professionally this may seem like a radical idea but what if...She was just the best person for the job??????? She's no slouch with qualifications...

1. Crack Scientist, which would be useful to a ship full of humans seeing things they never knew existed.

2. Command Experience, she was in the VHC for decades and rose through the ranks. Not a lot of command experience on Enterprise besides Archer and Trip, and Trip is dicey.

3. If written better her secret agent training could have been an asset.

Her personality was also an asset, and I'm sure it was a consideration. But she was not the first Vulcan to be assinged to a Starfleet ship. She was the first one to integrate sucessfully into the crew. I think Soval made a logical choice, I mean he wanted humans to succeed, and T'Pol was a main reason why they did.

[Silverbullet]

I have never accepted the idea that Humans would go along with Vulcans holding thier hands to guide them like little children. I believe it would rankle Hell out of the humans.

Command experience. she said she had only served o one Spaceship and that was as an assistant Intelligence Officer. that would not give her any experience in running a Space ship. also, she may have raised through the ranks but no indication she had ever attended Command School or even been in a command position. She was in intelligence. She probably was assigned to a mission alone or with a rteam that had a team leader. Her command experience is questionable.

why would the crew go along with her in a command position. She is not a human, Starfleet Officer. Trip being second highest ranking human officer aboard Enterprise would be obeyed first and the crew would insist on it by the way they acted. there would be those who would go along because they thought Archer had okayed it in advance. Others wouldn't because she was an Alien which they would not trust or understand.

[Aquarius]

Honeybee's point in starting the thread is not to speculate on why T'Pol was there based in what we see in Canon, but rather how, if Archer's cut line had been kept instead, how would that have affected the crew's perception of her, as well as ours.

[Asso]

Honeybee's point in starting the thread is not to speculate on why T'Pol was there based in what we see in Canon, but rather how, if Archer's cut line had been kept instead, how would that have affected the crew's perception of her, as well as ours.

Thanks for the explanation.

[WarpGirl]

But why would the Vulcans send her to be tested on a human ship when there had been other Vulcan officers on Starfleet ships and couldn't hack it? If as Honeybee hypothesizes its because of T'Pol's 'crummy emotional control' the logical thing to do is keep her as far from humans as possible. Especially given her past as a member of the Ministry of Security. So I guess I'd say glad they cut the line because it doesn't make any sense at all to put T'Pol in there.