Captain Tucker or Captain T'Pol?

[Silverbullet]

We have been through this bbefore. T'Pol came on board as a Vulcan Officer in the Vulcan high command. Her rank meant nothing on Enterpriese. She was not Human, not in Star fleet or a Star Fleet Officer. She was Vulcan and a Vulcan Officer. since Enterprise was a human Starship and Star Fleet was a Human organization it follows that only Human Star Fleet Officers have any rank on board.

This is NOT a federation ship. No Federation yet. Spock was a Federation Officer assigned to a Federation ship named the Enterprise. this was not true of T'Pol

So, T'Pol could NOT be be named first officer on Enterprise she was not a Star Fleet Officer or Human.

Certainly no Human could have been assigned as first Officer on a Vulcan, andorian, Tellerite or Klingon ship so why should a Vulcan Officer be First Officer on a human ship. when you open that door then the Vulcans could demand that all human Star ships have a vulcan as First Officer.

Trip was second highest ranking human Star Fleet Officer on board so he was not only chief Engineer but also XO. He had a good Engneering crew so he could evote much of his time as XO

It is also insulting to Trip and the crew to say that a Vulcan should take them in hand and lead them as XO. I think that the crew would treat Trip as XO regardless.

SB

[putaro]

Fixed that for ya!

[Silverbullet]

Putaro, you fixed it? How?

T'Pol had no legal right to be designated XO she was a Vulcan Officer. Her rank meant squat on Enterprise.

Still believe Crew would regard Trip as second highest ranking Human Starfleet Officer on board as XO.

Can't remember the name of the female who would have been Trip's second in command of Engineering. she would handle the day to day things of engineering and only call on trip in a real emergency. so he could be Xo most of the time.

(I keep saying that Bragga and Co were trying to re create the original Star Trek bridge crew.Except the helmsman would be black instead of Asian and the communication Officer Asian instead of black. T'Pol would be spock. Sciecne Officer and Second in command. Trip filling in for the doctor in the trio of Captain, XO and the third one. Problem was. The original was a Federation ship so spock as a federation Officer had a right to be on board as Xo and Science Officer. T'Pol did not)

SB

[Distracted]

He fixed it by hypothesizing a treaty that gives Vulcans equivalent rank on Earth ships. Didn't Allies in WWII have the same agreement?

[putaro]

Archer stepped into Forrest’s office and closed the door. “So how is this Vulcan diplomat supposed to fit into my command structure, Admiral?”

“She’s a subcommander in the Vulcan military as well. Under the Vulcan-Earth Joint Defense Treaty of 2147, that’s equivalent to the rank of commander in StarFleet.”

“So now I have two commanders. Well, she looks awful young. At least Trip will still be senior.”

“She may be young for a Vulcan, but she’s not young for a Human. She’s got time in grade over Commander Tucker.”

“Great, just great.”

“Think of her as a chaperone, Jon.”

I think NATO must have something similar. There's some kind of structure for UN forces as well. I mean, after all the other things that we rationalize away, this is pretty small. It's not like rationalizing away physics or biology.

She has time in grade in the Vulcan Military not in starfleet. so Trip would still be senior to her.

always thought that her rank was the standard English equivalent. so Sub means below. She is below full commander, i. e. Lt Commander. Other wise she would be sub Captain that would put her senior to Trip. As it is she seems to be aLt Commander and he is enior in rank to her.

The thing is, you're arguing with what was in the show. And it wasn't a little detail it was a big thing that the was one of the major plot points for the whole series. It's not hard to come up with a rationale for it. There are no written regulations for StarFleet that we're privy to so we don't really know their rules.

[putaro]

Oh, and I dunno why they put "sub" on subcommander, probably just to be different.

Subcommander is a military rank used by organizations such as the Vulcan High Command and the Romulan Star Empire. In joint operations with Earth Starfleet, a Vulcan subcommander has been treated as being a grade below a Starfleet captain and above a Starfleet commander.

According to The Making of Star Trek (page 256) the Romulan rank of subcommander is fully equal to a Federation Starfleet captain.

So, according to that, T'Pol outranks Trip, pure and simple.

[Asso]

For me the problem does not exist. Can you think of a more adorable FO than T'Pol?

[73Bruin]

Not sure that it makes any difference who was FO when Archer was Captain or who is better qualified. If the discussion who would be promoted to captain of a ship representing Earth and human values, in my mind, it would have to be Trip. There was also certainly too much political baggage still around to see T'Pol getting promoted over Trip.

Actually, I like Rigel Kent's treatment of this question.

[Cogito]

Oh, and I dunno why they put "sub" on subcommander, probably just to be different.

Subcommander is a military rank used by organizations such as the Vulcan High Command and the Romulan Star Empire. In joint operations with Earth Starfleet, a Vulcan subcommander has been treated as being a grade below a Starfleet captain and above a Starfleet commander.

According to The Making of Star Trek (page 256) the Romulan rank of subcommander is fully equal to a Federation Starfleet captain.

So, according to that, T'Pol outranks Trip, pure and simple.

That raises the interesting prospect that T'Pol may technically have seniority over Archer, too.

[Alelou]

Oh, here we go again...

[Silverbullet]

Yes, isn't it interesting.

I still say that her rank should have been subcaptain. Below full captain but above a full commander. A commodore (obsoletd rank in the U.s.Navy)

Time in Grade is dependent on serving in Starfleet or in the VHC. If she served it in the VHC it cannot be transferred to Starfleet. Her time in grade would start when she was sworn in as a Commander in Season four. Trip would have a least three years time in grade over her.

As far as Nato goes it tried and failed. Their ship which had many countries repersented. the officers could all speak English but the enlisted usually only their native language. It would have taken interpreters to pass on orders. too clumsy. a second ship was in the planning stage when the project was killed.

SB

[Weeble]

Put me down with Alelou

[Linda]

Is anyone still interested in this thread? If so, my take on Captain Tucker or Captain T'Pol is both. During the Romulan War they needed more experienced officers as captains, so Trip and T'Pol ended up as captains on separate ships. Then after the war, they had had enough of being separated and took civilian jobs so they could be together and raise kids in a normal planet-side neighborhood. Too dull for a good story? Need more drama in their lives? Hmm, have to work on that. lol:

[Asso]

Being separated throughout the time of Romulan war is not in itself a drama already quite dramatic?

[Cogito]

Rigil Kent's Endeavour series is so compelling that I can't imagine it happening any other way. Captain Tucker and First Officer T'Pol, strengths complementing weaknesses, kicking Romulan butt together.

And at the same time, and to exactly the same degree, Command by Transwarp shows Captain T'Pol's superb ability to lead her crew to victory time after time, strongly, elegantly, often humorously, with the support of her chief engineer and bondmate.

So, looking at these two visions, it is clear they both show the truth.