Vulcan Arc

[enterprikayak]

One thing I always wonder about is how much globalization of Vulcan culture we should assume. Should we expect that if Vulcans did it one way here and in this time they would necessarily do it the same way in another time and place? There would at least be some significant differences between centuries and so forth. Especially regarding marriage, we humans have always had 100909 ways of skinning the cat.

Of course, as the Worlds of the Federation book shows Vulcan's surface to have what only look like a few large lakes—instead of any Earthlike interconnected continent-forming oceans—we must assume that the phenomenon of discrete culture development would have been less extreme on Vulcan than it is here on Earth. But on a planet of any size there are bound to be some distance-culture variations. Which I think means that we can get away with quite a bit in the "fan" world of phantasmical dreams and whimsy. yay!

[Silverbullet]

Okay, then did the Old T'Pol have a bond with her Trip because the young T'Pol certainly did with her Trip.

I have read some very good fanfics about that. Hopeful Romantic wrote one where The Generational Trip died saving his ship. His T'Pol was with him to the end she took him to his favorite place and was with him there until he died. she too wanted to die and begged to be killed but then realized she had to live for Lorain. wonderful story.

As had been brougt up the writers didn't seem to come up with the Bond until later but in the Star Trek Encyclopedia a Bond between the children when they are first engaged is mentioned. So the concept of a bond was there for the writers before the Enterprise series started.

[honeybee]

Or the difference is that T'Pol and Koss never faced Pon Farr like Spock and T'Pring as they're marriage was planned not just one where they were forced to seek each other out.

I thought of that pdsldl, but in that case, wouldn't the betrothal bond have to be broken at some point, which we never saw? And T'Les accuses T'Pol of not bonding with Koss because of Trip. She could be talking about a full matebond, but it doesn't sound like it. It seems like T'Pol has no bond whatsoever Koss. Of course, that could be me projecting.

Okay, then did the Old T'Pol have a bond with her Trip because the young T'Pol certainly did with her Trip.

I assumed yes, they were. I also assumed in my E2 story that once exiled from Vulcan and Vulcans permanently, T'Pol found it easier to pursue a relationship with Trip.

[Kotik]

I'm more in the camp, which believes that a bond between mates is not a universal occurence.

in "Bound" T'Pol says that 'there is a long held belief' that there's something like a mating-bond. Looks to me as if informations on that are rather sketchy, even among Vulcans. This being something from their savage past, it could have been so taboo'ed that many informations just no longer exist and that many Vulcan marriages are a mere 'living together' type liason.

I would see the formation of a bond as only possible, when both partners share a deep affection. Since marriages are arranged, it works for some, who fall in love over the time and it doesn't work for others, when the chemistry's just wrong. Seemed to have worked for T'Mom and V'Dad. The year of living together after marrying might just be a tradition that survived, with few knowing where it comes from or what purpose it serves. As I wrote in the prolog of "Enterprise Revisited", a handshake once was way more than a mere greeting, but it survived without its origin and purpose being known to many.

[pdsldl]

Old T'Pol most likely bonded with her Trip bit it was taboo and being away from Vulcans would have made it even less likely she would talk about it to anyone but Trip. Maybe Lorian when it came time for him to take a mate. And she might have kept it to herself because she didn't want to influence young T'Pol and Trip too much.

And as far as the betrothal bond maybe it only had an effect during the first Pon Farr to call them together then the mating bond is formed and takes over. Then they spend time together to let the bond get stronger and learn to work with it. The time together may be what's needed to form the bond and let it grow.

[Silverbullet]

T'pol says in bound that it has been long believed that a bond is created between two who have mated. She doesn't come right out and say that they are Bonded. Trip does. He denies it at first by saying "We didn't mate" and then says "Okay we are Bonded, what does that mean." T'Pol says that they share thoughts, etc. Later Trip refers to them being in each others head. I take that to mean the writers were saying that a Bond exists between them. also in Terra Prime or Demons Trip says "I am getting sick of this Bond" and T'Pol says "I don't enjoy it either." They are Bonded as far as I can ell by the dialogue.

So if the young Tnt are bonded because they mated then the old TnT would Bond also when they maed. Which brings me back to my question why the Old T'Pol didn't mention it to the Young T'Pol. the Bond would certainly be important to the Young T'Pol if she knew about it That could change how she viewed her relationship with her Trip

[honeybee]

Maybe that is what Old T'Pol was getting at with the whole thing about Trip being an outlet for her out-of-control emotions. Maybe she didn't mention the bond, because she didn't want to shock her young self and felt it was better if her young self discovered in on her own. She of all people would understand what would freak young T'Pol out.

[enterprikayak]

yeah it wouldn't have worked if she'd cozied down next to her and was all, "Okay, so you guys are psychic, but don't worry, it's awesome, here's how it all works...."

It's totally one of those let's-let-her-figure-it-out-for-herself things

[Brandyjane]

I would see the formation of a bond as only possible, when both partners share a deep affection. Since marriages are arranged, it works for some, who fall in love over the time and it doesn't work for others, when the chemistry's just wrong. Seemed to have worked for T'Mom and V'Dad. The year of living together after marrying might just be a tradition that survived, with few knowing where it comes from or what purpose it serves. As I wrote in the prolog of "Enterprise Revisited", a handshake once was way more than a mere greeting, but it survived without its origin and purpose being known to many.

That's how I see it, too. My theory is that the betrothal bond is initiated by some sort of shared mind meld created by a Vulcan priest at the point of betrothal. Since Vulcans are supposed to be monogamous, its sole purpose is to call them to each other in case of pon farr occurring before the actual marriage takes place. A betrothal bond wouldn't cause an emotional attachment or a deeper mating bond, but it might help ease the way if they proved compatible during the "honeymoon year." I think Vulcans actually experience a lot of different kinds of bonds, though some are deeper and involve more mental-sharing than others: parent-child, sibling, deep friendship, "mind-meld-buddies" bonds, "saved-your-life" bonds, etc.

[Silverbullet]

T'Pol said "Vulcans don't have honeymoons. when she wanted Trip to know that she had not comsumated her marriage with Koss. She said she spent two weeks Alone meditating and then returned to Enterprise.

There could not have been a bond between Koss and T'Pol because he let her go so easily. Bang it was done. T'Les even hinted at it by saying the reaso T'Pol could not Bond with Koss was Trip.

If T'pol could not bond with Koss there had to be a reason and that was probably because a Bond already existed between TnT although T'Pol nor Trip were aware of it. Mother knew something was up though.

always hated Home because there were so damned many Holes in it.

SB

[Alelou]

I definitely, totally, and completely think she was in love with him. I don't think she was suppressing it, either. I think she didn't know if she was capable of giving him what he needed or could make a relationship with him work. I think she needed to get on solid emotional (for a Vulcan) footing. She had to let him go, not string him along, so she could get herself together. I think she is in pain there, too, because she recognizes that this might be the end for them. But she thinks it is the best decision, since she knows she's not capable of being in a relationship.

I'm not even arguing that she's doing the right thing, because it could be that Trip is in a position to help her. But she thinks she's doing the right thing.

This is exactly how I see it. I think it's the only way I can see it and still like both of them. Because otherwise, frankly, Trip would be better off with someone else. (OR, I suppose, I could just kind of pretend season 4 never existed.)

[honeybee]

That sounds like a project for when you finish your missing scenes, Alelou. Screw virtual Season 5 - give us a virtual season 4.

[Alelou]

Well, personally I tend to accept canon and just tweak it between the lines (or scenes). But judging from the number of people on this thread complaining about season 4 because it makes Trip a doormat to a brutal T'Pol, refusing to accept Season 4 as canon is another valid way of remaining a fan of the 'ship. Personally I tend to think, like you, that T'Pol is haplessly brutal because she doesn't know any better. I also think that, yes indeed, poor Trip has some doormat tendencies, but I think he'll come out all right in the end, manliness safely intact.

Anyway, I'm having a hard enough time with season 3. The current scene requires me to rewatch "Rajin" for the third time in less than a month and I just can't bear that at the moment. So I guess I'm in a lull. Frankly I'm having a hard time even reading fanfic at the moment.

Very much enjoying a memoir called Still Life with Chickens, though.

[honeybee]

If I thought T'Pol was a cold, ball-busting witch with a b and Trip a drippy, doormat, I wouldn't be a fan of this ship at all! I see them as two confused people from different cultures who try and do right by each other and fail.

That Raijinn scene, I'm assuming you're talking about when she assaults poor T'Pol, is brutal. Sometimes I think writers hated T'Pol as much as some of the so-called fans do, given how often they devised brutal things to happen to her.

[Alelou]

No, it's far more tedious than that. It's figuring out things that aren't apparent from the transcript, like who walked into sickbay when, how did this person get from point a to point b with a change of clothing, why aren't there any injured crewmen there, how injured DID the crew get anyway (and if not, why the hell not)? Etc. etc. In short, I've become tangled in minutiae/plot holes.

I probably could solve it in less time than it took me to compose this message by just watching the damned thing again, but I. just. don't. want. to.