Rajin & Similitude

[WarpGirl]

Well would it have been possible for the alien salamander babies to survive? And if I'm not mistaken the Caretaker wanted the array to be destroyed otherwise the Kazon would have taken over. Uh Oh sorry OT. Anyway those two incedents wouldn't be practical to punish. However, their could have been some form of diciplinary action taken with Archer. I still say Phlox was basically forced but even then there should have been something. As for T'Pol the WHOLE THING was despicable.

[Distracted]

I agree, but once again, consequences= continuing storyline. It would require thought on the part of the viewer, who, God forbid, would have to remember what happened from week to week. This is not the traditional ST format. You're supposed to be able to watch the episodes in no matter what order and still follow the story. Anything else would require the viewer to THINK and REMEMBER, something which TV viewers are inherently unable to do. (Haven't you seen "Bones" with its mid-episode synopses? They can't believe that the average viewer can even follow a plotline through one EPISODE!) This is what the writers were thinking, I guarantee it. They have no respect for the intelllect of the average viewer. And, admittedly, they're probably right for the most part. Why do you think Enterprise lost viewers during its "Daniels et al mess around with time" episodes? I think it was because the complex time-travel plots bored people who couldn't be bothered to follow them. Then the writers tried to bring back viewers by reinstating the KISS philosophy. (Keep it Simple, Stupid.) Unfortunately, it was too late by then.

Thank goodness for fanfiction. We can write all the soap operas we want.

[WarpGirl]

OMG I LOVE "Bones"! It's the best thing on TV right now (well Burn Notice is a close second.) I always thought the re-caps were comic relief. Anyway you have got a very good point.

[Distracted]

They ARE comic relief...for those of us who're actually following the plot.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, why should anyone be reprimanded? Archer, Phlox and t-Pol were trying to save the Enterprise, Crew and mission. they suceeded and that is all that would matter to Starfleet. Believe me, there have been many cases in history where a successful outcome hinged on some pretty lousy tricks but they were forgiven because of the success.

Why didn't T-Pol object? She did. Twice once saying that the proceedure was illegal because the Lyserian council had banned it's use.

the second was on ethical grounds, creating a Sentient being just to destroy it.

I believe there have been discussions on other boards as whether this was murder or not. Sim was an exact duplicate of Trip. when first suggested Phlox had no way of knowing that Sim woud inherit Trips memory or even become a person in his own right.

Still, sim dies but he still lives because he is trip and trip lives.

Same as if Trip dies and Sim lives. sim lives then Trip lives because Sim is Trip.

The rub comes in when Sim becomes an idependent personality with his own feelings, emotions and he is starting to build his own memories in addition to having Trips.

For Phlox there would be no delima in killing Sim to save Trip. Doctors have always had to make tough life and death choices that involved choosing who will live and who won't: Case in point. Two Co-Joined girls in operteration to sepearate one would have to die. Parents could not make the choice so the Doctors had to make an arbitary choice. In the actual event both died. but one might have lived if the oeration had been successful and the choice of which that one would be was a Doctor's. times when a doctor had only time to treat one person when two were in danger of dying at any moment. Another arbritrary decision.

During WWII doctors routinely made choices of who to treat and who to let die. It Depended on how bdly wounded a soldier was and the chances of recovery. Why waste precious time on a soldier who would not make it.

In the movie Pearl Harbor the Nurse is asked to go outside of the hospital and mark patients in that way. those who would get treatment and those who would be given a shot of morphine to ease their way into death.

So, for Phlox it would be easy unless he became so attached to sim that he was conflicted.

I would have thought that T-Pol's logic would lead her to conclude that Sim was a means to an end and that end was Trips life which was so important to the mission.

[Silverbullet]

Warpgirl, why should anyone be reprimanded? Archer, Phlox and t-Pol were trying to save the Enterprise, Crew and mission. they suceeded and that is all that would matter to Starfleet. Believe me, there have been many cases in history where a successful outcome hinged on some pretty lousy tricks but they were forgiven because of the success.

Why didn't T-Pol object? She did. Twice once saying that the proceedure was illegal because the Lyserian council had banned it's use.

the second was on ethical grounds, creating a Sentient being just to destroy it.

I believe there have been discussions on other boards as whether this was murder or not. Sim was an exact duplicate of Trip. when first suggested Phlox had no way of knowing that Sim woud inherit Trips memory or even become a person in his own right.

Still, sim dies but he still lives because he is trip and trip lives.

Same as if Trip dies and Sim lives. sim lives then Trip lives because Sim is Trip.

The rub comes in when Sim becomes an idependent personality with his own feelings, emotions and he is starting to build his own memories in addition to having Trips.

For Phlox there would be no delima in killing Sim to save Trip. Doctors have always had to make tough life and death choices that involved choosing who will live and who won't: Case in point. Two Co-Joined girls in operteration to sepearate one would have to die. Parents could not make the choice so the Doctors had to make an arbitary choice. In the actual event both died. but one might have lived if the oeration had been successful and the choice of which that one would be was a Doctor's. times when a doctor had only time to treat one person when two were in danger of dying at any moment. Another arbritrary decision.

During WWII doctors routinely made choices of who to treat and who to let die. It Depended on how bdly wounded a soldier was and the chances of recovery. Why waste precious time on a soldier who would not make it.

In the movie Pearl Harbor the Nurse is asked to go outside of the hospital and mark patients in that way. those who would get treatment and those who would be given a shot of morphine to ease their way into death.

So, for Phlox it would be easy unless he became so attached to sim that he was conflicted.

I would have thought that T-Pol's logic would lead her to conclude that Sim was a means to an end and that end was Trips life which was so important to the mission.

[WarpGirl]

Hey people like us can multitask: drool over Booth and Wendel, follow Tempe's very logical rational scientific train of thought, mock Sweets, catch the murderer, and yell "Oh Booth for crying out loud, just KISS the woman and be done with it!" See easy. Compared to "Bones" ENT is for pre-schoolers.

Is "Rajin" any good? I haven't seen that one. My crash course has been rapid but not yet complete.

Oh Silverbullet I can't argue the ethics of this. I'm not nearly qualified, and all I can say is that the whole thing is AMORAL. War doesn't justify everything, how many atrocities have been commited in the name of war? In the name of defending your home? I'm sorry there are limits, and Archer crossed them by creating Sim and stealing that warp coil in "Damage."

[Distracted]

For Phlox there would be no delima in killing Sim to save Trip.

Ummm....I beg to differ. Sim was not Trip. Sim was Trip's identical twin, who would not have even existed had Phlox not performed a procedure which by its very nature violates a main tenet of medical ethics. "First, do no harm."

Phlox didn't harm Trip, but in creating Sim he created a situation in which he would be forced to harm a sentient being. Admittedly, he may not have known that Sim would be as functional as he was. Normally a human being who's been living only 15 days just lies there and dirties his/her diaper.

I'm not saying that if Sim had been a mental vegetable it would have been any less wrong to kill him. I'm just saying that there are degrees of wrongness, and to get material for a partial brain transplant one has to have a donor with a brain. Trip would be of more value to the ship than an infant would be, and so sacrificing an infant with a prospective lifespan of two weeks might have been morally justifiable to some. It would certainly have made a controversial episode, and the science would have been much less wince-worthy. I personally think the writers wimped out in not making Sim an infant. Guess they just didn't want to go there. I guess in their eyes having him be intelligent enough to go to his death voluntarily made it all right, but I disagree.

Phlox was so out of character and so amoral in this episode it made me sick. No doctor with even a vestige of respect for human life could ever have done what the writers had his character do. Triage in the case of limited medical resources is one thing. Making a hard decision about who lives and who dies in a multi-trauma situation is totally different from killing a sentient being in cold blood for spare parts.

[WarpGirl]

And this is why I'm glad you are a doctor Distracted. I could not have phrased it so eloquently. I get too passionate. (stupid Klingon side I swear) It was wrong, and frankly I can't believe Trip would have left on a mission where the odds were drastically NOT in their favor, and not assemble an engineering team that would be able to handle things in case he was killed. That would have been the hight of idiocy. And the killer despite B's intentions, Trip is not an idiot as an officer, or an intellectual, or a human being. I don't know if I'd call Sim an identical twin, more like a reflection in a mirror.

[Distracted]

Is "Rajin" any good? I haven't seen that one. My crash course has been rapid but not yet complete.

I liked it. It was sort of hot, actually. But then, I've been getting into Raijiin's head lately writing Lerteiran and I like her. She's a bad girl, I know. I still like her, the sneaky little git.

And genetically speaking clones are twins of their donor.

[WarpGirl]

Please forgive my incredible blond moment, (no offense to blonds) I am getting over a severe cold and I'm still buzzed on DayQuil. What I want to know is are you going to start "season 7?" I prefer Hoshi being a "sneaky git" and for her to do her sneaking with a certain Armory Officer.

[Distracted]

I suppose anything's possible, but I've pretty much moved on at this point. Except for Lerteiran, I'm trying to devote my time to writing something of my own in my own universe rather than in Mr. Roddenberry's. It's coming more slowly than I anticipated, in part because I keep getting drawn back into ST fandom by discussions like this.

Oh well. I'm just weak and easily distracted. Thus the screen name.

[Silverbullet]

I agree that Sim should have been left without Trip's memories and more less a child or baby.

I have always wondered what Sim felt aging five years in 24 hours. Everything must have been a blur for him. How did he create any memories when evrything passed so quickly. He could have actually stood in front of a mirror and watched himself grow and his face change from child to adosecent to teen to young man. I think sim would have gone nuts.

I still believe that sim was ritten as a Soaper:

Main character/possible ove interst gets critcaly hurt.

along comes someone who can save him and has only a few days to live.

guy saves Ship.

guy falls for female lead/Possible interst for main character/possible love interst.

Guy professes his love to female lead. she is conflicted.

guy is going to his death so female lead/possible loveinterst. Gives im passionate Kiss telling him that she will miss him (leaving out that he will always have a place in her heart)

Guy goes to his death happy knowing the female lead cares for him.

Male lead/possible love interst recovers.

End of episode.


What intersted me in this episode was that at no time did t-Pol go to sickbay to check on Trip's progress or even ask Phlox about Trip. She showed no interest at all in Trip the writers had her focus on SIM.

[Linda]

Distracted, I am finding it very hard to move on from Star Trek too. I have written short pieces that I like and that my writting group would like me to submit somewhere. But the novel I have attempted is something I am loosing interest in and may abandon. Perhaps it was the wrong story to attempt and I should try a different story for a novel. I think right now I will try to concentrate on short pieces and actually submitting them. But then, I have a few ST things that I want to write or finish writing. Then there is my day job, my family, the boat...

As you say, distractions are rampant!

[Alelou]

Oh well. I'm just weak and easily distracted. Thus the screen name.

You've done a hell of a lot better than I have. My screen name should be Hopeless Addict. Or maybe Hitting Bottom. Um, no, that sounds a little too naughty. How about In the Gutter?

Gah. Especially today.