The pon farr thread

[Aquarius]

Interesting thought. The opposite of what happens to most human males (though not all, I'm sure).

Again, you could almost see more parallels with Vulcan men and Human women than Human men; we supposedly hit our peaks later in life, too. Between that and the regular cycles of arousal we talked about earlier, it's almost enough to make me wonder if whoever was making this stuff up was paying a little more attention to women than we originally thought.

In regards to your own story and character, the rape thing isn't so incongruous.

SPOILER!!!:

Your character is someone who is a former spy, a slave owner, has killed at least one person that we know of, has admitted that he likes to dominate his sexual partners, and has an affinity for rough, violent, depraved sex (referencing the conversaton about the temples he had with Kendra). So for him, it's not such a stretch to see him hit his Time and turn into a rapist; this is someone accustomed to taking what he wants and is of questionable moral character by our Human standards.

It's still hard for many to read about, but that's more because of sympathy for the victim than seeing a beloved character like T'Pol or Spock or Tuvok do something out of character and violate another person for the purposes of reader titillation. Their moral character is such that it makes it difficult for many readers to reconcile them turning into rapists, even during a pon farr, I think.

[panyasan]

Maybe a very strange thought, but in our Western culture we try to avoid pain and suffering and the pursuit of personal happiness is seen as normal. Vulcan society put the whole (like family) before personal things and happiness and I don't think it's unlikely a Vulcan may think the logical consequences of being Vulcan, having pon farr and no mate, is to die.

[Alelou]

Well, A, the next debate we'll be having is about just how much of a monster Vehlen really is, but I think I'll leave that for the future. God knows there's enough debate attached to the current chapter already.

[Aquarius]

^ I know that's right! I went to check out any commentary left since the last time I visited and saw a TON. Thinking about all the other stuff I had to do this morning I was like, "Maybe later..." I think "monster" is a subjective term. By our human standards, maybe. But for him and his culture, is he really a monster if it's perfectly normal? Things that make you go "hmmmmmm...."

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

But if the other mate isn't Vulcan, I don't know... Does that "blood fever" pass to non-Vulcans too? Is just telepathic or biological too?

On VOY, the Vulcan Vorik passed on his blood fever to the non-Vulcan B'Elanna. So yes, a Vulcan male in heat will pass it on to another female of a different species (or to a Human-Klingon hybrid anyway).

Also, I don't believe a Vulcan female enters pon farr without it being triggered by a Vulcan male already in the throes of it. When it happened to T'Pol in Bounty it was triggered by those germs or whatever, in much the same way a blood-feverish Vulcan male would have triggered it.

That's my story and I'm stubbornly sticking to it.

[Asso]

I repeat.
But why do we debate about Pon Far? It isn't more simple to write about logical things?
My daughter is young. She looked at the first episode about Pon Far ( do you remember?) She guffawed. And I felt stupid.

[Aquarius]

I repeat.
But why do we debate about Pon Far? It isn't more simple to write about logical things?
My daughter is young. She looked at the first episode about Pon Far ( do you remember?) She guffawed. And I felt stupid.

Asso--We're debating it because I asked, because I want to know. Some of us may not like it but it's there, canonically established as a part of Vulcan sexuality. And since it's there, I'm going to use it. However, I contend that it doesn't have to be the violent, awful, debasing thing that a lot of people assume it is; the truth is, we have very little information about it, and we've only canonically seen examples of it when it's gone wrong for one reason or another. So I'm selfishly using this thread to focus-group some ideas on what it is under normal circumstances. Once I have a clear picture in my mind of what's "normal" for the "average" Vulcan couple, then I can further explore what it has potential to be in the context of a loving, secure bond between a Vulcan and a Human.

Human sexuality is a beautiful thing when you're doing it with the right person, and I personally don't believe that Vulcan sexuality has to be homogenized and Humanized in order to be likewise beautiful. As Kevin aptly pointed out, it doesn't have to be about unrealistic beatings and injuries, and it doesn't have to turn into a BDSM story. At the core, pon farr is simply an overwhelming, intense, mandatory drive to mate, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm willing to bet EVERYONE reading this thread has felt something like that at one time or another--minus the death part if we don't have it fulfilled. So I confess to being kind of baffled as to why it seems to have been so vilified by some people. You never know; you might actually like what I come up with! Just give me a chance, 'kay?

KTR (and everyone else)--Just a point of clarification in "Bounty", 'cause it's been a while since I've seen it, but I seem to recall that T'Pol said that the female pon farr is usually triggered by the male, suggesting that while not all that common, a female Vulcan could, theoretically, spontaneously combust on her own. Am I remembering that correctly, or am I dreaming?

[Asso]

I think I will use Pon Far for my own aims.
I don't think it deserves anything else.
But, obviously, this is my opinion.

[Alelou]

If you want to read the transcript of that episode, I'm sure you could find it here:

http://www.chakoteya.net/Enterprise/episodes.htm

[Aquarius]

Very helpful, Alelou. Thanks!!

*scurries off to read*

[Asso]

Thanks. I know it. I think we have to pick up the poetry that there is everywhere, but we have to not take Canon as the "revealed truth". Bible has to be interpreted, for me.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

KTR (and everyone else)--Just a point of clarification in "Bounty", 'cause it's been a while since I've seen it, but I seem to recall that T'Pol said that the female pon farr is usually triggered by the male, suggesting that while not all that common, a female Vulcan could, theoretically, spontaneously combust on her own. Am I remembering that correctly, or am I dreaming?

Sorry, but you're dreaming. Trust me, I've had this discussion a gazillion times in different fora over the years. The only thing she said about her pon farr is that "it's not time", which I reasonably interpreted that since she didn't have a mate, it wasn't the time for it to happen to her.

I admit that the writers screwed up with that episode (they were more interested in showing off the resident babe in heat than following long held canon) but they left enough wiggle-room to make the IMO sensible interpretation that I do.

All prior Trek had established that it is the Vulcan male who enters pon farr, most recently by Kov in Fusion:

KOV: Kov. We were just discussing Vulcan mating rituals. Most of my people are extremely uncomfortable talking about such things. So many inhibitions. Vulcan males are driven to mate once every seven years.

[Aquarius]

Okay, that's crazy, because I could swear that someone somewhere in an episode said "usually triggered by the male." I don't disbelieve you; I'm just wondering where the hell it came from because it wasn't anything I dreamed up recently. Maybe somebody's fic is blurring into "reality" there? Hard to tell.

ETA: regarding Kov's statement there and some earlier discussion in this thread about it...I would say, then, it's fair to say that while Vulcan males are "driven to mate" once every seven years, this does not exclude the possibility of it happening more often in between. It is just biologically mandated at seven year intervals. Whether or not one chose to do it in between would seem to be open to interpretation.

[Alelou]

Yes, I went ahead and used that theory in The Locum,

SPOILER!!!:

where it takes a mind meld with a Romulan in their version of pon farr to set T'Pol off. Fortunately Trip was in the room, but it's got to rankle him that this was how she got started.

But since we don't know per se about Vulcan females from canon, it's not utterly beyond the realm of possibility. "It's not time yet" is fairly ambiguous. A case could be made for it.

Maybe because my own marriage has had to struggle with infertility, though, I find the concept that they might be hamstrung by Trip's inability to set her off more interesting. It does create a challenge for a couple. Of course, they have plenty of other challenges beyond that.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

ETA: regarding Kov's statement there and some earlier discussion in this thread about it...I would say, then, it's fair to say that while Vulcan males are "driven to mate" once every seven years, this does not exclude the possibility of it happening more often in between. It is just biologically mandated at seven year intervals. Whether or not one chose to do it in between would seem to be open to interpretation.

I've never made the claim that the Vulcan males only do it only every seven years. I think, as you put it, it is just biologically mandated at seven year intervals (and probably with a little more intensity than otherwise). I was merely making the claim that no such cycle exists for the Vulcan female.

So Vulcans can - and do - have sex when they want. The question here is how often they want it, and here I think it depends on the individual Vulcans. Some may be really repressed stiffs (no pun intended) that actually only do it every seven years, if that (think Masters of Gol who has gone through kolinahr). Others, presumably very stable bondmated pairs, might go at it like bunnies, although that is probably also quite rare.

As for Trip and T'Pol, given the sexdrive of a Human male and the telepathic mating bond they share, will probably do it quite often. Lucky guy... *grumble, grumble*