Do Vulcans have a Religion?

[justTripn]

I don't know, JT. I am not what people can call a believer, and nevertheless I am not alien to think that a Creator can exist. And I am a fervent BELIEVER in science.

That is why I used "necessarily." Science does not necessarily lead one to belief in a Creator.

[Alelou]

Asso and Aquarius are both right. Yes, we can't escape the fact that Vulcans are conceptualized by Humans. Real aliens probably really would be really mindblowingly different -- unless they evolved in a similar environmental situation, in which case, they might be quite similar.

However, within that conceptual framework, we can still make them quite different from most humans WE know. (Of course that usually just ends up just being a lot like our idea of other, nonwestern humans.)

[justTripn]

Also, yes Star Trek aliens are supposed to be enough like us that we can explore themes relevant to us as Humans (or maybe relevant to all sentient beings?). But Star Trek is MOST definitely set up to challenge our preconceptions.

[justTripn]

RIGHT! (I'm agreeing with Alelou.)

My idea of a good Star Trek plot is you take some contemporary Western piece of conventional wisdom and run it up against an alien with completely different assumptions. Or you set up a scenario that people never deal with in ordinary life and so we have no set rules for it. But it can happen in sci fi. And then you go, now what? What should they do?

You defeat the purpose if your aliens are like contemporary Westerners and your situations are ordinary stuff.

[honeybee]

Let's not forget that humans also challenge the Vulcan way - and the Vulcans that we see interacting and getting to know humans - which is a pretty substantial list that includes Spock, Sarek, Tuvok, T'Pol, Soval and V'Lar to name a few - recognize that the Vulcan way might not necessarily be the right or best or necessary path for humans (see: The Forgotten). This also does not preclude Vulcan spiritual practice from being called religion, since many religions do not insist that their path is the only path.

They are similar enough that we relate to them, but their culture, worldview and physiology still makes them alien to us.

[Kevin Thomas Riley]

Based on what Sarek says in The Search for Spock, once a katra is lost it is considered lost forever. That's not very comforting! In fact, their idea of boxing katras up in little containers or passing them around priest to priest would probably correspond more with our idea of ghosts kept from leaving their earthly haunts by unpleasant unfinished business. I find myself wondering if one's katra wouldn't rather be free to fly off to do whatever katras want to do. (Perhaps riding along with Hopalong Cassidy, if it's Trip's....)

This reminds me of the Soul Hunters of Babylon 5. They tried to "take" the souls from dying people and keep them in containers (actually small glass globes), otherwise to them the souls would indeed be lost. But the Minbari believed in some form of reincarnation and thought that horrendous since it deprived the "soul pool" for the next generation of Minbaris.

[Silverbullet]

JT a belief System is just what it says: a system of believing. An organized Religion or a personal belief. for my self I belive that I don't know. So I question. Some have a very personal belief that is thier own. "My body is my Temple."

Perhaps it is the wrong prase to use. But it is as close as I can come. Religion has beome used in other ways. "Baseball is his Religion"

I Believe I don't know" that is my belief. Can't call it a religion but a belief system would fit.

SB

[pdsldl]

If you box the aliens in any sci-fi in with human standards, customs, beliefs you make the purpose of having aliens null and void. They aren't humans that just look different. They are different so we can look at life, issues, etc from new perspectives. Vulcans aren't the same as humans. They have different anatomy, physiology, mental abilities, beliefs and needs than we do. If humans suppressed their emotions and tried to meditate away all their emotions they'd die. We were meant to have feelings and learn to deal with them but Vulcans allow us to venture into a worldview free of those emotions and imagine the possible repercussions of such an existence. I don't know about some of you but I often thought I'd like to be free of my emotions at various times in my life but have since discovered (and Vulcans have helped) that being without them would make the life far less interesting and pleasurable.

[Aquarius]

If you box the aliens in any sci-fi in with human standards, customs, beliefs you make the purpose of having aliens null and void. They aren't humans that just look different. They are different so we can look at life, issues, etc from new perspectives. Vulcans aren't the same as humans. They have different anatomy, physiology, mental abilities, beliefs and needs than we do. If humans suppressed their emotions and tried to meditate away all their emotions they'd die. We were meant to have feelings and learn to deal with them but Vulcans allow us to venture into a worldview free of those emotions and imagine the possible repercussions of such an existence. I don't know about some of you but I often thought I'd like to be free of my emotions at various times in my life but have since discovered (and Vulcans have helped) that being without them would make the life far less interesting and pleasurable.

*stands, applauds, salutes*

[honeybee]

*Jumps on bandwagon to agree with Pdsldl*

[WarpGirl]

Amen pdsldl!

WOW! Freaky, because I just started writing a little about this in my own fic, I was very nervous about approaching it because religion is a hot-button topic. IMHO how I view religion has nothing to do with the question.

My two cents... Vulcans at one time in their past were polytheistic with a pantheon with thousands of Gods. Any good TNG fanatic will tell you that because one of the very best episodes of the entire series focused on that. Also in TAS Spock mentioned he went out to the old temples to think, referring to "the gods of our forefathers."

We know that after Surak, "true believers" in his teachings kept belief in the katra. They have temples, a form of clergy, that even said prayers. VOY stated that Tuvok's family went to a sacred temple to ask the Priestesses to pray for his safe return.

They also keep and revere relics, as evidenced in ENT with the whole P'Jem disaster. Monks, Priestesses, High Masters, acolytes, all have prominent positions of authority in society. And they are set apart, from that society in many ways. Typical of many religious Orders.

Surak's teachings also teach that logic cannot explain everything. (For example it cannot explain why evil exists, but Vulcans believe in evil.) Thereby leaving a door open for believing something that could not be empirically understood.

Clearly these are a spiritual people. Just look at their marriage and death rituals. T'Pol's wedding is a prime example, the ceremony is far older than Surak. And it was far from a mere legal requirement.

(And there was that movie with Sybok) just saying...

Now does this mean that I think that the majority of Vulcans would believe in a supreme being. No. But some might logically conclude that there is no empirical evidence to say that such a being, beings, or "God" does not exist.

Therefore it would be illogical to categorically to deny the existence of a supreme being, beings, or force beyond ordinary comprehension.

Others might say the opposite, exactly because of a lack of empirical evidence.

According to Surak both would be correct, at least according to the teachings I've read. So I wouldn't say that Vulcans are categorically, atheist or agnostic.

PS Memory-Alpha is not coming up for me I'll reference the episodes I talked about later. Or someone with a better internet connection can check my facts with the site of their choice.

[Silverbullet]

Intellingent beings think, imagine and question. Thier intelligence demands answers to questions.

the two most basic questions that can be asked are: Wher does the spark of life come from?" How do we think? Science and Logic cannot answer either of those questions. However, thinking and logical beings will ask them. I doubt if Vulcans would shug their shoulders and say so what. They would ask those very questions.

"I think in English, my wife in German, KTR in Swedish, Escriba in Spaish, etc. We think but how do we think. that little voice in our heads that is always there. Where does it come from how does it work. Why does it falter with time. Memory is harder to access, thinking clearly can be difficult at times.

Where does the spark of life come from? Science can tell you how a Baby comes about. Mother produces an Egg, father produces Sperm the two join, each provide Chromosomes which are the blueprint for the baby. The baby is born and it is alive. Wher does the spark of Life come from? THe Mother? Where does she get it? Her mother? We go back to first cause then. Where did the first spark of Life come from in that thing that first existed.

Science cannot answer that. Logic cannot answer that. Then what can?

[Aquarius]

From the dictionary, Religion:

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

What you are talking about, Silverbullet, is not religion. It is introspection and philosophy:

c : a discipline comprising as its core logic, aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics, and epistemology
2 a : pursuit of wisdom b : a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means c : an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs

[Alelou]

When science gets into great unknowns (i.e. what caused the big bang? Why does this particle seem to know what THAT particle over there is doing?) I think it sometimes crosses over into religious inquiry. Some physicists will talk about the God question.

I may be misunderstanding SB, but I think it is perhaps equally as close-minded to rule out God as it is to feel that you know the precise answer, as revealed in __________. Consciously not knowing is probably the most intellectually honest.

Not being THAT intellectually honest myself, I prefer to feel that there is God or at least a higher plane of existence and a force for good or at least for creation as opposed to complete chaos. It makes me happier and helps me make better sense of our short, unpredictable lives. I'm quite conscious, though, that I could just be deluding myself. Indeed, it could be that we have evolved to delude ourselves because it makes us happier and more successfully social animals.

[Silverbullet]

Aqarius, what you have in the secon d part of you rpost is what the Vulcans have from Surak. I am asking if they have the first part of your post. A Religious belief.

Warpgirl had a number of valid points in her post. She has a great knowledge of Voyager and Star Trek in general. She has brought up instnaces where Religion was portrayed in Star Trek. Prayer, Monks, High Priestsess. That is waht I have been asking: Do vulcans have a Religion and Warp Girl;s post seems to answer that.

what I was saying in my last post was that certain fundamental questions could not be answered by Sicence and Logic which would leave the door open for a Religious answer.

Science and make a crude map of the Brain and what part does what. but Science cannot say How the Brain does it. Science can describe how the body makes sounds and words but cannot say how the Brain translates thoughts into words. Those are questions that an inteligent species such as Vulcans would ask.

Since Vulcans are so like Humans in their physical make up. I think their thought process might be similar. That being the case I can see them having a Religion to answer these questions. No other way. Science and Logic cannot.

SB