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Silverbullet wrote:Time in Grade is dependent on serving in Starfleet or in the VHC. If she served it in the VHC it cannot be transferred to Starfleet. Her time in grade would start when she was sworn in as a Commander in Season four. Trip would have a least three years time in grade over her.

While I enjoy discussing things with you SB, I have a problem with you presenting your opinion as fact. Under current military rules this may very well be the case. However, how Starfleet and the VHC interact is pretty much up in the air unless it was on-screen at some time. How about tossing in an "I think" or "In my opinion" or "According to current rules" once in a while? This isn't like physics - these are rules made by people that are not universal truths. After all, someone may want to write a story where Archer gets trumped by T'Pol.

putaro wrote:someone may want to write a story where Archer gets trumped by T'Pol.

Wouldn't it be fascinating to see that scenario play out?

Cogito wrote:

putaro wrote:someone may want to write a story where Archer gets trumped by T'Pol.

Wouldn't it be fascinating to see that scenario play out?

Putaro, Gene Roddenbury said he would try to adhere as much as possible to U.S. Naval Regulations and structure.

I am not sure about being able to transfer time in grade among U.S. Military, i.e. Marines, air Force, Army, etc.

However, I am sure that a dutch soldier cannot transfer time in grade in to the Brazilian Army. cannot be done.

That is what T'Pol would be doing. the VHC is a foreign military command. One cannot take time in grade from it and graft that on to Andorian, Telertie, Klingon or romulan military.

The Ranking might be different, time in grade might be totaled differently. A whole raft of difference which would keep that form being done.

when t'Pol was sworn in she started out as a new Officer in Starfleet and her time of Service started then.

IMHO

SB

Silverbullet wrote:
IMHO

Putaro, suppose you had the most time in grade and your fitness reports were good to excellent. Then a soldier from another rmilitary came in with his time ingrade which was sevearl years more than yours.His fitness reports were all good to excellent.

Before him you would hage got the next promotion but once he xshowed up you were pushed back a long way and his time in grade got him the promition. you would cry foul.

That is why it is not allowed

We had a problem like that in the Fs. Military types were retiring and bringing their time in service in to the Fs. they would work for a couple of year sand then draw a 30 year retirement based on te time in service in the military they brought with them. they were draining the system so the Fs stopped it ad made them all go back to the end of the line where they had to work20 ears to get a retirement.

It was fair

SB

Your argument is logical. However, the show puts T'Pol as the first officer and apparently senior. There's any number of ways to write around that, including special orders from Starfleet command or really screwed up time-in-grade regulations. After all, as you say, the Foreign Service DID have screwed up time-in-grade regulations. My personal take on the Starfleet situation is that Earth really did demilitarize and most of that institutional knowledge was lost. Some of the stuff they're just going through the motions and they don't really understand why. Perhaps a lot of the Starfleet regulations were written by people who watched old movies!

There's some good stuff to mine there - write what you know is what they say and you've been through some of it. Maybe someone on Enterprise is pissed off about it. Is it part of the general pattern? Archer was not happy about the Vulcans at the beginning of the show. Did Vulcan tend to treat Earth as a client state?

I don't think anyone from the US military has transferred into the Iraqi or Afghani military but I'm sure there were people in those armies who did not like taking orders from Americans - quite possibly from a young LT.

I agree with you Putaro. In history you see that sometimes former enemies form alliances and even have joined military operations.

Starfleet seems to take it even a step further. It is pictured as an international sort of military organization. So Chinese, Russian, Americans, Brazilians (it seems like the USA no longer exist) all in one military organization, working together, without dispute about their national background and apparently all not having problems with that.

So for me, if that is possible, having a Vulcan as XO isn't a far stretch. In fact, it is just what happened. T'Pol is the XO, she can give orders, she can act like the captain if Archer is gone. It would be interesting to found out what kind of relationship Earth had with Vulcan. It would shed some light on the position of T'Pol without denying that she is in fact the XO of Enterprise.

IMHO.

Okay, in TOS the Enterprsie was a Federation ship. Spock was a federation Officer.He was legally aboard as Science Officer and as XO. The Federation was the Federation of PLanets. Earth being one planet, probably old countries still existed but were dependent on a central government.

In Enterprise, no Federation. WW III was over and Earth was struggling to survive and rebuild.

When T'Pol came on board it was as a liason and observer (and probably given secret orders to guide the helpless Humans)

Her Rank meant squat in Starfleet it was a VHC rank.


In both TOS abd TNG the Enterprise was a federation ship which meant that beings from many planets served on those ships in addition to people of different ethnic Human backgrounds like Asian, russian, British, etc.

Enterprise was not a federation ship and was manned and officered by HUMANS.

Federation REgs woulld be far different from Starfleet ones. Even so the Rankings on the Federation ships closely followed that of the humans.

BTW, remember Lt. Commander Data? He was an Androied. Later he was granted the rights and privaleges of a Sentient being. although he probably never consumed food, had to breath an atmosphere or several other things a being would do. Can you see him on the 21st Century Enterprise?

End of discussion as far as I am concerned.

SB

panyasan wrote:So for me, if that is possible, having a Vulcan as XO isn't a far stretch. In fact, it is just what happened. T'Pol is the XO, she can give orders, she can act like the captain if Archer is gone. It would be interesting to found out what kind of relationship Earth had with Vulcan. It would shed some light on the position of T'Pol without denying that she is in fact the XO of Enterprise.
IMHO.

United Earth and Vulcan had Embassies of each other's respective home worlds. That implies there are certain accords between UE and Vulcan. As the Vulcans are not the kind of guys, who do things half-arsed, I suppose treaties were in place that regulated at least these things:

• Jurisdication What happenes if someone of the Embassy personnel comits a crime?
• Military detachements Rules concerning military personnel

In one of the early episodes Phlox tells T'Pol that no other Vulcan has ever managed to stay on a human ship as long as she did. That implies there were Vulcans on human ships before. So I tend to think there were treaties/rules in place for such cases. About T'Pol being the XO: My working theory is that, since she served as the science officer, hence was in the chain of command, she probably had a Starfleet field commission.

Kotik, never in the series was there a hing of T'Pol being given a feild commission. She was always addressed as Sub-commander, her Vulcan Rank. So she was a Vulcan Officer assigned to Enterprise as a liason as the others were probably too. Only none of the others lasted.

Odd thing. She could get a Brevet Commision in Starfleet but not a field commision.

Far as I know she didn't get either.

But then, What do I know?

SB

SB, you missed the point. You argued that T'Pol couldn't be a XO on a Human ship, because for example no Dutch person would serve in a Brazilian army.

Yet, in Starfleet - as is shown in Enterprise - there is one "army" where for example Dutch and Brazilian persons serve together. So this Dutch person would enter a foreign (- international) army named Starfleet.

I don't see that happening in our time, but yet in ST Enterprise that happened. So for me, it wouldn't be a stretch for T'Pol serving at a Human ship.

Can I ask you an question? Why are you so dead set against T'Pol being a XO? She coudl and was the XO - as an Vulcan observer and later as a member of Starfleet.
Why shouldn't a Vulcan join the ranks of Starfleet? As a matter of fact, there were plans of having an Andorian (Shran) join Enterprise and Starfleet and Andorians have far less bonds with Earth than Vulcans.

Trip was the second highest ranking HUMAN Officer on a Human Starfleet Starship. He was defacto XO. the crew would see him as that and would not willingly take orders from a vulcan Officer.

T'Pol's rank was in the VHC and had no bearing on the Starfleet chain of command. she was never in that chain of command. fact is, show me the episode where T'Pol was delegated as XO. Not until the third season when archer threatened to remove her as XO but she was never named XO in any episode.

In season four she was officialy sworn in as a Starfleet Officer. Not until then. she was a VHC officer through the first three and a half seasons.


Lets say you are XO on the Enterprise. Designated as such. You have the Rank, etc. then a tellerite Officer is brought on board and soomeone says he outranks you. he is now XO. You would scream like Hell. claiming that the Tellerite doesn't know straight up abut Starfleet or its workings, regs, etc.You would be right. That is trip's position. He is far more qualified than T'Pol to be XO . she has spent her entire career in the vulcan military a different animal altogether.

SB

One of the bigger snafu's in "Broken Bow" was, that obviously no clear chain of command had been established. T'Pol was obviously clearly assigned the role as science officer. Before the first meeting Trip says: "since when do we have Vulcan science officers?" Archer or Starfleet had obviously not yet named a first officer by the time Archer was incapacitated on Rigel X.
T'Pol's rank of Subcommander does count. Whether or not she outranks him by rank or seniority is debatable, but the fact is both Trip and she 'qualified' for the job. Since T'Pol served in a defined officers position rather than a mere 'advisor', there must have been some sort of agreement between Starfleet and the VHC and T'Pol was clearly under command of Starfleet, not the VHC at the time.

There is precedent. During joint NATO maneuvres some times officers serve in the army of an allied force for a time. In that case they are integrated into the CoC according to their rank relative to the foreign army he's assigned to. If for instance an Italian Colonel is assigned to a Bundeswehr unit, he'll be placed in the CoC on equal place as a German Oberst. He will however keep the rank of Colonel and will be adressed as such, instead of bein transformed to an Oberst.

Were said Colonel however to leave the Italian army and enter official service with the German army, he would become an Oberst.

Trip was a Starfleet Officer for some years. Starting as Ensign. He was a seasoned Officer. T'Pol's time in Service was in the Vulcan military had no bearing on Starfleet. or did her Rank.

She would be accorded all of the courtesies given a visiting Officer but that would be all. she would not be taken in to the chain of command. she was NOT a Starfleet Officer.

I may be operating on the past when things might have been different in the military. who knows.

Still Trip was far more qualified to be XO of a human Staship than t'Pol who only served on two Vulcan ships and neither oe in a command position. Trip commanded on the Enterprise as head of Engineering and probably as acting XO when needed.

I keep referring back to the Nato Ship where the crew was made up of various nations military. There was going to be a second shp built, my wife was workiing on it when the whole program was scrubbed. If ailed badly. while many of the officers spoke englihh fluently and others had a good working knowledge of it. among the enlisted Ranks many spoke only their native tongue and there was need for many interpreters.

Kotik, suppose that Italian Officer spoke no German and no one in the German unit he was attached to spoke any Italian. what then? An interpreters would be cumbersome.

SB