What happened?

[Asso]

What you say, Warpgirl, is reasonable and has the flavor of truth, and yet I can not jettison the impression that T'Pol had had some feeling, attitude, idea - call it what you want - toward the human custom of "keeping a foot in both camps", or if you prefere, of "running with the hare and hunt with the hounds", when she and Trip have returned to Enterprise after the ignoble mockery of her marriage, especially considering that one of the camps (in Italy we talk of stirrups) was far away and what's more, detrimental to her delicate little foot.
And, after all, I can easily believe that Trip avoided his beautiful Vulcan, because not at all sure of the potential reactions in this regard both from him and from her.
You know... the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

[putaro]

In "Borderland" T'Pol makes a point of telling Trip that she didn't have a honeymoon and went to meditate alone. Whether or not she planned to commit adultery, it seems as though she regarded her relationship with Trip as being the primary one and wants him to know that she didn't betray him.

[Kotik]

In "Borderland" T'Pol makes a point of telling Trip that she didn't have a honeymoon and went to meditate alone. Whether or not she planned to commit adultery, it seems as though she regarded her relationship with Trip as being the primary one and wants him to know that she didn't betray him.

I would agree with you, if we hadn't have to jump through the logiocal hoops of season four's abysmal writing. At the time T'Pol cannot consider her relationship with Trip to be anything than friends, so even if she hopped in the sack with Koss, it shouldn't matter. He's her husband. Would she had considered Trip to be ANYTHING to her, she wouldn't have pushed him away again after the Vulcan arc or would at least have hd the decency to tell him that her marriage has been ended.

That's why the question of her considering adultery is only academic, since she wasn't giving him the time of day anyways.

[Cogito]

In "Borderland" T'Pol makes a point of telling Trip that she didn't have a honeymoon and went to meditate alone. Whether or not she planned to commit adultery, it seems as though she regarded her relationship with Trip as being the primary one and wants him to know that she didn't betray him.

Yes, although their hopes of being together seem to have been crushed,T'Pol goes out of her way to let him know that her new husband hasn't claimed his rights yet.

[Asso]

Mh... Substantially and to be honest in brief, that silly of T'Pol has stuck herself into a terrible mess.
Undoubtedly, her mother has been very helpful to her, right? Ah yes. Mothers always know how to work for the happiness of their children, but, perhaps, T'Less had not too much of experience. I say this because I want to act like a gentleman, towards her, but...



And Asso, too.

[panyasan]

I think T'Pol does take her own culture and the institute of marriage seriously, but the fact remains she is blackmailed into a marriage. She tries very hard to escape any consequences of that marriage - it isn't annuled for no reason - annuled meaning it isn't a real marriage in the sense that they slept and lived together, otherwise it would be a divorce. So she is blackmailed into a marriage, tries to avoid mating with the guy at any costs, tells the guy that she loves that she didn't sleep with Koss and what does he (Trip) do? Tell her that he found their relationship couldn't work out any way! So please don't worry T'Pol, our relationship hadn't got a chance so it's a good thing you got yourself blackmailed into this marriage.

Trip leaves T'Pol with that great message, avoids her and then her mother dies, everything she sacrified for is for nothing, everything she every thought was true is gone and we expect her to come running to Trip saying "I love you - my marriage is over. I know you didn't think much of our relationship and my life is a total mess, but can we try again?" (BTW: we don't know how Trip found out the marriage was over. We only see Koss relieving her of her marriage and never seen any response of any crewmember about this. Maybe she did tell him, we simple don't known.)

Not that I don't understand Trip's side. I do. Not that I wished that T'Pol had come running to Trip. But I refuse to believe that T'Pol didn't love Trip, before, during and after the marriage with Koss, or that her actions were based on some kind of cruelty against Trip. Whatever her reasons were, they weren't that.

And now I have to rewrite a scene because of this discussion! Thanks guys!

[Asso]

And I too, Panyasan. And this is in grace of you, who mirrored my thoughts, giving substance to them.
Only an additional thing: I think that Trip behaved like this because he was desperately searching for some good reason: The fable of the fox and the grapes, do you remember?

[WarpGirl]

I'm not sure she told Trip she hadn't had sex with Koss because she wanted him to know that she was "true to him" I think she told him because she was hurting, and couldn't understand why he was angry with her. And really, he had no right to be angry *with her personally* (the situation itself is another can of tuna) he had the oppertunity to speak up, and deliberately chose not too do so. So I think he treated her rather badly. It wasn't as if she had any control over what happened.

In any case, I stand by my statement, even if T'Pol herself would give into "temptation" she'd never put Trip in that position. Is it so horrible for people to have integrity in their own morals, even if it's not fair and painful? That's what makes it HONOR AND INTEGRITY to begin with. If it was easy to be moral and honorable when things were hard than the world wouldn't be in a sad sorry mess it's in.

Adultry is wrong, and if TnT were the type of people who thought that marriage didn't matter if they were unhappy, I'd HATE them!

[panyasan]

I think T'Pol said "I didn't have a honeymoon" to insure Trip of her feelings for him - even when she made a promise of marriage to Koss.
I don't know if it was wise, but very true to her feelings for him.

It doesn't imply that she wanted to continue her relationship with Trip, that would have been off limits for her.

If Koss had pressed the matter before the annulement and called her home - she would feel obligated to do so and would, leaving Trip alone. At that time she had promised to be his wife and she would be living the consequences of her sacrifice to her mother, including breaking off all contact with Trip. The fact that Koss didn't asked her to stay or force her so, is rather strange. Why sent your wife back to the person that you know she loves or have strong feelings for, even when you (Koss) know T'Pol wouldn't cross the line and break her promises to you (meaning - continuing with the relationship with Trip).

As for adultery: it's the most painful act you can make towards your partner. Why should you throw away years of a relationship and a life together for just a few moments of what? If you feel even tempted to do so, better ASAP work to improve your relationship instaead of seeking it elsewhere. Just my humble opinion.

[Silverbullet]

Panysanne, Malcolm told Trip that t'Pol's marriage was ended when they were trapped on that Romulan drone ship.

T'Pol told Archer that the marriage was over and e said he was sorry. t'Pol answred why?

T'Pol told Trip that she had not consummated the marriage which is why it was annulled instead of a a divorce. I still believe Koss knew that she would never be his wife, period he could force her to help him through his Pon 'Far but it would be a fight. So he cut his losses. Koss could easily find another woman. He came from a good family. His father was an assistant minister in the government.

T'Pol told trip that she had not had a honeymoon she did NOT say she had not slept with Koss. she could have done that without a Honeymoon.

She told trip one thing but held back the most important thing the end o fher marriage.She was silent on that. Why.

Was she playing both end towards the middle.

It is no wonder Trip is confused. She pulls him to her on one hand and pushes him away on the other.

SB

[WarpGirl]

<insert sarcasm> Poor St. Trip, completely not responsible for his own actions and decisions held captive by the willy-nilly whims of a woman detemined to confound and abuse his heart as much as possible while getting herself into messes simply because she refuses to be selfish, and stands up for her beliefs. Yeah, it's so sad he's a child, only 34 with no clue how to make his own decisions. <end sarcasam>

Give me a break, T'Pol is not some Femme Fatale trying to have her cake and eat it too. She's doing the best she can with what she's got. Just like every other flawed being. Did she make rotten choices? YES! But they were not based on capriciousness, or malice. Trip made rotten choices too! He said hurtful things and sent a ton of mixed messages of his own! He was never clear about his own feelings for her, NEVER! Not even after Terra Prime.

[Silverbullet]

anysanne, T'Pol didn't have any obligation to Koss. Her behrothal to him had been ended by his parents.
When her mother was killed that ended any thing she had with Koss. Koss knew that it was why he released her from the marriage. He knew that she would never be his wife. She might have gone through the motions but it would have been hollow.It was only for her mother that T'Pol allowed the blackmail.

Trip said nothing becuase he didn't want to make things any more difficult for T'Pol than they were. T'Pol's mother played her. T'Les knew she was going in to the Forge to look for Surak's Katra. She knew T'Pol probably would have left Vulcan with Trip if she, the mother, did not interfere and help Koss Blackmail T'Pol in to the marriage. T'Les was not going to go back to the acadmy so T'Pol's sacrifice was useless and T'Les knew that. T'Les in effect ruined two lives or tired to, T'Pol's and Trip's.

That episode is not one of my favorites. In Fact I hate it.

SB

[panyasan]

Look, if you come back from a wedding and your former lover asked you "'How was your honeymoon" - clearly suggesting you and your so called husband slept together and you say very specific that you left right away after the wedding ceremony and meditated for two weeks and came straight back to Enterprise- for me the message is clear: I didn't stayed in any way with Koss. Why would she tell this to Trip if only because she still cares about him?

Trip's reponse is weird - we didn't have a change anyway. The only explanation is that is he is hurt and tries to console both him and T'Pol.

As for T'Pol not saying to Trip about her marriage being ended: I very much doubt she would tell this to Malcolm or any crew member for that matter. The whole thing seems to suggest an official announcement is being made (maybe by the Vulcan officials) about T'Pol's status of marriage. That's why Archer knows as well. As for her response why Archer feels sorry, I would say "Why?'' as well. Archer hardly has any feelings for her personal matters, so why should he care? (if you use Vulcan logic).

Bottom line is I truly believe T'Pol isn't there to make Trip's life miserable on purpose. She is no angel, but no B***** with the capital B either. She is put in a terrible difficult situation and both Trip and T'Pol made mistakes and suffered from cultural differences and misunderstandings.

[WarpGirl]

Bottom line is I truly believe T'Pol isn't there to make Trip's life miserable on purpose. She is no angel, but no B***** with the capital B either. She is put in a terrible difficult situation and both Trip and T'Pol made mistakes and suffered from cultural differences and misunderstandings.

What she said!

[Kotik]

Ok, before we start a slugging match out here, let's have a look at what happened:

We saw that Trip didn't fight the marriage and we got to know the reason why, but there are still two things that have yet to be answered. It is pretty obvious that Trip was the one who was in the least possible situation to do anything. He was on a foreign planet and in a cultural environment largely unknown to him and he had the decency to not force his ethical views on T'Les and T'Pol.
The thing I don't understand is why T'Pol and T'Les didn't do anything. It would have been an easy thing to do for T'Les to go into the Earth Embassy and wait for her transport off-world. She must have known that things were starting to go wrong. Instead of searching for a solution, she sold her daughter off. It may have been the right thing by Vulcan tradition, but it was the wrong thing to do for the good of her daughter and she knew it at least in the end. T'Pol also just let it happen and her actions before the ceremony showed that she knew how much she hurt Trip with it.

How was Trip supposed to react afterward? I can imagine that her info of having not consummated her marriage did help him to fight the pain. That way he at least didn't have to imagine some other man taking the woman he loved. The Romeo-and-Juliet comment makes sense. He said it mostly for is own benefit. Knowing what he knew about Vulcans, he expected T'Pol to resign to her duties as a wife, so all hope was lost and speaking from experience, you need some excuse to put more space between you and a loved one after a break-up and that was the only thing Trip could come up with.

The TnT relationship became unrealistic after the Vulcan arc. T'Pol should have gone to Trip for help or at least to share the news with him. Now people may make a big deal about the grief over her mums death, but she didn't look that distressed to me while on the planet. I think she was at least coherent enough to think about the one, who endured her marriage to another. The whole secluding herself in "Daedalus" didn't make any sense to me.

The first indications that any crew member got to know about her released marriage was Malcolm's comment on the drone ship and the scene with Archer in the captain's mess. We never got any indication that Trip knew before the others. If the whole TnT thing didn't jump the shark in "Home" it did in "Daedalus" at the latest. Of course that doesn't stop us making up some outlandish theories to still make it work.